Sunday, 3 March 2013

Justice Delayed

justice delayed

69 comments:

Union said...

Clever man, the police investigation may take months if not years......

Adloyada said...

If this post is intended to support the assumption that justice will come, whether delayed or not, from a Beth Din set up, appointed and one-sidedly funded by very close relatives and supporters of both the organization and the associated accused, and with which two alleged victims have understandably refused to co-operate, I am surprised.

Justice may not come from the police investigations either, given the very high standards and burden of proof required, and the understandable fears of the alleged victims of the terrible personal consequences that could follow if their identities become known via going to the police. Nevertheless, I hope good-hearted and yashar people in our community will continue to come forward to offer them support and protection and give what information they have to the police and the Charity Commission, because we need to support the victims and protect others from harm.



sareilrosenfeld said...

Dear Rabbi Padwa and UOHC,

Thank you. Thank you for embarrassing upstanding kehilla members by allowing this to reach so far. The special appointed Beis Din has been adjourned because the police are involved. Shame Dech phooooo. You had complaints - A Bilbul. A Gilu Das - A Bilbul. So appointed a specila Beis Din at a cost to the kehilla for what? to show its only a bilbul. Arrested -a Bilbul. If he sits - a bilbul if he doesn't - certainly a bilbul. The UOHC by not just kicking him and his shul out of our kehilla have embarrassed Yahadus London to no end. Bochurim in Gateshead and beyond are having mental issues not to mention adults who are struggling day to day with this nightmare. Rabbi Padwa with your shev val taaseh you have buried our kehilla in the muddy waters of the beis oilam. Dr Schonfeld would ring your neck together with the rebbisher backsides you cover for. We have reached the point of no return we need action now.

sh educated said...

Not signed. Not dated. Anybody who has ever received a letter from UOHC could easily have forged this. I have received several letters from them and for all you know I could have posted it.

And why is it not in Hebrew?

Basically just another pashkvill.

Ben Zonah said...

Can we have the retraction letter uploaded?!?

aghast said...

If only our 'Union' leaders could have dealt with this last summer, when the NW London Rabbonim asked them for action. Their dithering has caused us to witness perhaps the biggest scandal seen since that of Shabbetai Zevi 350 years ago.

kedassia man said...

SH ecucated is quite right. It hasn't been signed and even the heading itself is ambiguous in that here is no name, not even printed, for someone to contact if they want to make a genuine query.

Even more, only people who have access to internet, which has been forbidden in the strongest possible terms by the UOHC, would have the faintest idea to what this refers.

To remind you. There has been not a beep about the whole affair anywhere in the heimishe media ever. Not in Tribune or Hamodia or the various news-sheets/updates etc. distributed or any notices in the shuls. Hardly anybody in Stamford Hill has seen the Gilui Daas that started it all.

In Stamford Hill it is VERY dangerous to (admit you)have internet at home. If you or your wife/husband has a job or children in any of the "heimishe" moisdois you just can't risk it (unless, of course you are rich!).

Except for a few more opened-minded people nobody in Stamford Hill would know anything about this. In the shtiebel I daven at more than half the mispallim don't know what Google is.
'Nuff said

BLBH supporter said...

I didn't see any notice that they were coming back this week. Is this a retraction?

Anyway, here is the good news that you have been waiting for:

Rabbi M C E Padwa is speaking at he Kolel Polin dinner.

Of course, this may be retracted.

SH Lost Hope said...

@ Kedassia Man

so is now time to leave all the crap behind and admit to ourselves what a false life we are leading.
Have you all seen the latest fiasco? EURO Disposables took the initiative and got KLBD for their lids that kedassia so famously banned for Pesach. They publicised it in the shuls, both thanking KLBD and mentioning that they have stock with kedassia that does not include the lids. The owner was harassed by Rabbi Scharf (Asaraf) but paid n o attention. so today Asaraf went out all guns blazing with a shiur on kol haloshon basically condemming this developement. It doesnt matter that he spoke a heap of dog s****t its the principle of the thing. When is this all going to end???

Thinker said...

Aghast,

Actually, if our 30 or so GG Rabbonim had together all issued the Kol Koreh back in the Autumn, a massive show of achdus, things would have played out very differently.

Is it now too late for that? Perhaps not.

What do you think, dear readers?

End Game said...

How do we as a kehillah end this saga?

I want to hear practical solutions not involving hiding behind doors and bowing down to rabbonim who are counting on us to do so, so they can do nothing...

This must end, SOON.

We must gather ideas and act on them to show we car efor our kehillah.

Am I talking sense or rubbish?

Joe Blogs said...

@SH Lost Hope -

"is now the time to leave all the crap behind and admit... what a false life we are leading":-
when I said this on my blog over the the last day or two, you said I was an apikores! I was asking for intellectual honesty from the rabbis. If we don't even have that, you can forget about kedassia being always above board.

It will be alright said...

Leave this up to the authorities/police ... if they come out with a 'psak' that RCH is not guilty, then this is the final and everyone should accept it and get on with their lives!

There is a good reason as to why only 5 Rabonim have signed the GD .... as others did not want to sign it as there are not enough facts!

Not quite sure why people are moaning .... why does everyone have to be involved in this saga anyway ????

Anonymous said...

End Game said...

“How do we as a kehillah end this saga?"

A new Kashrus Alliance should be established, to be run professionally by reputable Rabbonim and key leaders from all charedi kehillos.

All those responsible for the present calamity to be banned from holding any role in the new Kashrus Alliance.

possible solution???? said...

To End Game
Maybe the Kehilla should get together and respectfully write a petition, collecting from all Jews living in NWL signatures, asking RCH to leave town for the sake of the community's welfare. I think this might have the desired effect...

Hey! said...

To IT WILL BE ALRIGHT
You have totally missed the point.

Not being found guilty by police does not mean he is worthy of being a Rabbi....

When will you finally understand?!?

Adloyada said...

Ummm, "possible solution", Purim is no longer with us for this year.It may have escaped your notice that efforts with both interpersonal and collective missives and declarations, to say nothing of active blogs, have tried to effect this solution, with the only result that the defenders and attack dogs get more and more entrenched and defensive.

What exactly are your grounds for thinking that if every Jew in London (or perhaps only hechshered males over 13) would add their signature to a petition, it would make any difference to a group of people who declare their contempt for a Gilui Daas of eminent Dayanim and Rabbonim, and hold it to be the product of jealousy and false witness?

Besides which, is "leaving town" a good enough solution? Which Jewish area would you wish to secure a departure to? Is a continuance of the problem elsewhere OK with you?

Or we can take the line of Anonymous 11:19 and set up a shiny new Kashrus and Shechita operation. That'll certainly protect the girls and women of our community and make it all alright with those who have been complaining...

Stapler said...

@EndGame & possible solution???? said..

Maybe the Kehilla should get together and respectfully write a petition, collecting from all Jews living in NWL signatures, asking RCH to leave town for the sake of the community's welfare. I think this might have the desired effect...

www.petitiononline.co.uk/com provides free online hosting of public petitions.

Your welcome to start one

Confused said...

Does "not guilty" of crimes under English law(whether due to lack of evidence or otherwise)mean suitable to be a Rabbi or Cardinal? Can someone explain to me? Is the bar the same?

Confused said...

Get some yekkes to run it. The kehillo is crying out for yashrus that has been sacrificed on the altar of frumkeit

The Red Baron said...

The Police do not find anyone guilty or not guilty.
They simply lay the evidence before the CPS who decide whether to prosecute.
Even should someone go to court and be acquited, they are not found 'not-guilty'.
It simply means that there is not enough evidence for a jury to find the defendent 'guilty beyond a reasonable doubt'
An acquital is not proof of innocence.

Raffi said...

What was the problem with the aluminium lids?

SH Lost Hope said...

@ Joe Bloggs

Sorry to have ruffled the birds feathers!

I thought you would take the title of apikores as a compliment, I didnt mean it in a derogatory way.
However to explain, Criticising Dovid Hamelech based on our limited spiritual capacity is what I refer to as apikorsus, and as I explained on your revered blog that the study of nach was historically avoided so as not to fall into the trap laid by the maskilim and their ilk. We cannot take literal transalations and then apply them with our limited mindset. I agree that is wrong for teachers to infer any behaviour to be emulated to our children using examples from Nach.

The Charedi establishment today is the crap I am talking about and has no relevance to the above discussion, The corrupt machinations of Kedassia and Halpern Dynasty need to be exposed and then hopefully we can reidentify what Torah true judaism is about. They are most definitely not the answer they are the question!

NotGabyLock said...

How bad is it when the Vatican looks more transparent than the Union of OHC.

Unbiased said...

Why do so many want to get rid of one of the best Rabbonim England has ever had?

Because they hate what he stands for,true sincere and vibrant Yiddishkeit without wishy washy compromise.

Old timer said...

Being accused does not mean guilty.

Unless you want him to be guilty for your own rotten ends.
Life would be much easier without leaders who insist on purity and holiness.
So they say "let's get rid of him because he's as bad as us"
Well do you think that Hashem will stand for that?
Of course he won't !
Repent before it is too late.

Oihave Chaim said...

Why don't all the haters of Haredim join the reform movement and leave the true believers alone?

So much scandalous talk fuelled by a blog with a wicked agenda.

A rachmonous on your kinder.

A M Ho'oretz said...

Absolutely!

The police and authorities will judge whether R'CH is guilty of any criminal activity. In all probability this will come down to an assessment of whether he abused his priviledged position as a counsellor or whether whatever took place could be considered consensual.

This will rely heavily on the testimony of the ladies in question (assuming they agree to appear in court) based on two things:

1.) Does the judge and jury believe their allegations that intimate contact took place.

2.) Assuming that 1.) is true, does the judge consider these ladies vulnerable, unstable and therefore incapable of being consensual in whatever took place or will he/she take a view that they are/were of sound mind, which allow the possibility that they may have agreed to take part in whatever went on.

Clearly - if the women come forward and are believed, R'CH's defence will be based on this point.

However, there is a well documented school of psychological thought that says that no matter how sound of mind a person being counselled may be, it is NEVER appropriate for a counsellor to have physical contact (of ANY sort) with someone they are counselling as it is a fundamental abuse of their role. Much in the same way as a counsellor is bound to protect the confidentiality of the person they are counselling (unless they judge in their professional opinion that that person is a risk to themselves or others). But just as breaching confidentiality in these matters is unlikely to be seen as criminal activity (only unethical!), the courts may judge that some physical contact may also not be criminal, only unethical, if it can be proven that it was consensual - hence the basis for this type of defence.

Hence regrettably, the burden of proof will be for the women to prove that they were assaulted (and to what degree) and then to prove that this was not consensual. It is quiet possible that they will not have sufficient evidence to satisfy the court's requirements to substantiate criminality and therefore the court may come back with a Not Guilty verdict. (or the women may be too afraid to testify, in which case the whole thing is probably a non-starter)

However, just because the authorities may produce a Non-Guilty verdictin no way proves that R'CH is exonnerated from any wrongdoing, merely that it was not possible to prove he was engaged in criminal activity.

The question will still remain over whether he has behaved himself in a manner unbecoming of a Rav (or - lets face it - any frummer yid). The burden of proof for that can AND SHOULD be much lower.

For a Rav to even put himself in a position to be accused/under suspicion of these things, probably makes him unworthy of the title. In this case, for instance, in whose impoverished mind does it make sense that a Rav (no matter how saintly or respected) can bend the rules of yichud to counsel women late at night in the privacy of his own home? You are only asking for trouble when you do such a thing.

Loshon Horah, Eating Treif, Being Mechalel Shabbos, Being Moitzei Zero Levatola, Eating chametz on Pesach, eating chazir, behaving like a chazir - the list goes on. None of these are Criminal activities, but would you accept that they are appropriate behaviour of a Rav?

(To be clear for those seeking to chase defamators - I am not accusing R'CH of all these behaviours, just illustrating a point!)

Of course not! A Rav should exhibit behaviour of a much higher moral standing than the 'Amcho'.

So, if even a Scottish grobbe Cardinal can get away with a half-apologetic "...My sexual behaviour has on occasion fallen short of what is expected..." and run to the hills with his cassock between his legs......

Abramson said...



A M Ho'oretz
It is clear from your nasty, biased ,long winded diatribe that you should have signed as 'Grobber Am-Ho'oretz'.

How dare you talk about "impoverished minds",when you have shown such crass stupidity .

Amazing how much misinformation you give about;-
Legal matters
Valid counselling practice
Appropriate rabbinical behaviour
Burden of proof
What actually took place etc.

How one potz can spout about so many subjects,without saying anything that is correct or honest?
The saddest part about it is,that so many pathetic morons lap up your sort of bilge.

Greater tzaddikim have had scandalous accusations levelled against them,without it reflecting one iota on their characters.

There have always been reshoim who make tzorres for true ehrlicher Yiedden.

Betrayed former supporter said...

Sockpuppet alert!

I can't believe some of the few remaining CH supporting nutcases still read this blog.

3 pro-CH comments in a 17 minute period after midnight all from names we've never seen before.... (probably after he came home from the wedding last night).

Get real Mr Unbiased/Old Timer/Oihave Chaim, the whole town has spoken - what makes you so special that you can ignore the entire community? The truth is out there, you just need the courage to seek it out.

brash and bold where its needed said...

@ Oihave Chaim
*Why don't all the haters of Haredim join the reform movement and leave the true believers alone?*

Maybe you should shove your arrogance somewhere else.
Dont dare think hareidi Judaism is anything close to being truely representative or exclusive of baalei Torah.
In fact most of chilulei H' going on that we see in the news in EY, NY, Australia and now locally is perpetrated by "frummers".

Now I am not saying all Hareidim are like that, but the fact is that you follow a rejectionist hashkafa, anythign new including secular knowledge and the sciences is rejected out of hand. You idolise Roshei Yeshiva to the point of following blindly, and you judge people based on what they do or dont wear on their heads (both men and women).

This is only a very small list of the problems displayed by the new movement in Judaism... Hareidim.

Abramson said...

Betrayed former supporter,
In reply to your comment ,I say to you that the old saying
עולם גולם has never been more appropriate than it is to the present day GG Community.

Anonymous said...

Wasnt he arrested for perverting the course of justice? That is what the police will be investigating

Nod Hendoner said...

11.40 tonight C4h "Random Acts" A Besotted Rabbi. It's a 5 minute quickie. The mind boggles ....

Not anonymous said...

The four arrestees have had their bail extended by 2 weeks

Geronimo said...

Brash and bold..........
Charedi or haredi does not refer to members of a movement.
It is a similar to frum or observant or even orthodox.
It means keeping all halachot and jewish moral tradition,
It is not judgemental or rejectionist.
Haredim don't reject science or technology,they reject the low morality of modern society.
It only takes a very few bad people to give the many tens or hundreds of thousands of decent ,honest and clean living frummer Yidden or Haredim ,a bad name.

Overall we can be very proud to belong to such an elevated social group.
Would you prefer it if our youth idolised pop stars or football players.
Good that they idolise roshei yeshivot and Rabbonim gedolim tzaddikim,they are our people's heroes.we are blind without their guidance and that is why we follow them.
You refer to a local frummer chilul Hashem.
Yes there is a local chilul Hashem ,the denigration of a talmid chochom, based on rumour and idle chatter.
We don't judge people by their headgear nor by that which is merely unfounded rumour.
And most important we have ahavas Yisroel ,we love all Jews regardless of how frum they are.

Todays News said...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2288495/Spiritual-healer-clairvoyant-psychic-sexually-abused-women-claimed-releasing-emotional-blockages.html

Astounded said...

geronimo

you wrote a lovely post, only to ruin it completely by denigrating a group of local senior Rabbonim by depicting their unequivocal conclusion in this squalid matter as 'rumour and idle chatter' without noticing the irony!
the incredulity and sheer stupidity of people in this matter (the alternative is calculated wickedness, which i am bound by Halocho to disregard) is beyond beleif, and calls into question the sanity of a small, but vocal group of people in our community. i sometimes feel that i am living in a lunatic asylum, the Ribbono Shel Olom gave you a brain. for crying out loud, use it once in a while!!

PLEASE REMOVE said...

PLEASE REMOVE ASAP the link put up by Today's News
We have all been desecrated enough as it is...

Astounded said...

Please do not remove the link to today's news it is vital that we understand the way that the criminal justice system views abuse of trust. The 16 year sentence handed down is indicative of this. As a community, we need to begin to change the way that we think about abuse. If a rov was spotted going into mcdonald's , this matter would have been settled a long time ago. what does that say about our communities values and priorities??!!

Geronimo said...

"Astounded"
I am upset and surprised how you have chosen to misunderstand my comment regarding " rumour and idle chatter" as being applicable to the Rabbis who have proclaimed on the fitness of a certain rabbi continuing in his various communal positions.

Dayan Lichtenstein שליט״א mentioned crossing a thin red line,this clearly means engaging in minor infringements of Halacha,only to be regarded as very serious because it is ill befitting for a rabbi to do so.

Rabbi Hager שליט״א condemned behaviour which might in his opinion ,cause some to be lax regarding אביזרייהו דג׳ע.

The other 5 choshuver Rabbonim has been reasonably read by many,as saying "allegations" are enough to disqualify one from holding a public office.

Nowhere in any of these revered rabbis' pronouncements was the any reference to 'devastated victims' or of accusations of 'gross lecherous conduct.

These accusations are the stuff of 'rumour and idle chatter'

brash and bold where its needed said...

@Geronimo

Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate your angle.
I cannot however accept your answers.

let's analyze:
"Charedi or haredi does not refer to members of a movement.
It is a similar to frum or observant or even orthodox.
It means keeping all halachot and jewish moral tradition."
- In reply, why must it be that to keep all halachot and moral Jewish tradition is limited to the domain of Hareidim?
Can a Jew who does not conform to Hareidi mentality, hashkofos, dresscodes and chumras not be holding in halachos and traditions, not to say morality?
This is typical of the kimd of attitude I frequently encounter, the one which reflects an internal mantra of 'only we have it right, if he wears a borsalino he is an erliche Yid who is holding, and if not, then he is a grobbe am hoaretz"

"Would you prefer it if our youth idolised pop stars or football players.
Good that they idolise roshei yeshivot and Rabbonim gedolim tzaddikim,they are our people's heroes.we are blind without their guidance and that is why we follow them." -
I would respond to you by saying, no, I would prefer it if our kindelach followed the mitzvah of not idolising anyone else but their Creator Y'S. This includes Rabbanim, Roshei Yeshiva, rebbeim, Rebbes, Rebbe Nachmans and whoever else the flavour of the weeks is.
A few hundred years ago some confused Yidden also idolised a certain 'big Rav'. His name was Yoshke...and the rest is history.

Astounded said...

Geronimo

As an introduction and disclaimer, the following does not refer to criminal behaviour - that is currently sub judice, i refer exclusively to the much stricter code of practice that we Jews have to live by, as codified by Shulchan Aruch. that out of the way, i now have 2 choices, per my post of 11.36 this morning. you are either being disingenuous and/or naive, or deliberately and maliciously distorting the views of these Rabbonim. it is easy to descend into obfuscation and sowing doubt in the mind of those already confused and unsure about which way to go, or what to believe. it is in my view, dangerous to start downgrading the very serious allegations, not minor infringments of Halocho, that we are discussing. it is downright dangerous to make it sound like we are discussing borderline, slightly inappropriate behaviour. Firstly, remember that Abizrayhu one is halachically required to lay down ones life, rather than transgress. let no one be under any illusion here. we are discussing serious violations of Halacha - ask any of the Rabbonim who signed the GD, ask Rabbi Hager, Dayan L, etc etc - do you really think that these people would destroy the reputation of a Senior Rov , with all the repercussions for him and his family, community paralysis, disillusionment with the very institution of Rabbonus, if it were not patently obvious to them that they had no choice but to speak out because they were convinced that serious violations of Halacha had taken place. your reasonable reading of the GD is simply untenable, given the context - your approach, even if it is genuine, is dangerous. i dont mean to be confrontational , but what the Kehilla needs at the moment is clarity, not more confusion. there is a growing consensus that the rabbonim of the GD WERE guilty.......of not spelling it out even clearer ,so that posts like yours, and the views of the cynical and confused would be put to rest.

Geronimo said...

Brash and bold......
I won't address all the objections you raise to my post.
Your concept of the meaning of Hareidim is highly flawed.
Borsalinos etc.are not relevant to being hareidi,and hashkafot are dictated by Halacha.
I would have thought it obvious to the meanest intellect that I used the term idolise as pertaining to admiration and being worthy of great honour,and not in the hardly ever used sense of deification.

Geronimo said...

Astounded
Your cynical and confused comments are worthy of a rabble rouser.
The reputation of a senior rov has been attacked by the likes of you ,not by our revered rabbis whose sober language has been twisted by the rabble to imply gross breaches of the moral conduct dictated by the Torah.
It is obvious that you belong to the camp of the malicious distorters whose aim is to cruelly destroy a great rov,his community and the tranquility of his venerable family.

Abramson said...

Really "Mr Astounded" !!
The whole content of your reply yo "geronimo" shows how desperate you are to destroy a good man.
That is obvious ,because it is full of conjecture and bias.
It has content which could validly be called rumour mongering.
On top of that you have the gall present yourself as an expert on Halacha.

Shame on you and your ilk.


brash and bold where its needed said...

@Geronimo

"...and hashkafot are dictated by Halacha."
No they are not. What are your sources for such a notion?

Geronimo said...

Hashkafot are various outlooks on the way we should live according to the dictates of the Torah as interpreted by our sages.

Hashkafot must always conform to the dictates of Halacha,
otherwise they would be false or heretical hashkafot.

So "Brash and bold" there you have it!


The Red Baron said...

Geronimo

I'm a little confused.

Your whole argument seems to be based on your interpretation of the phrase 'a thin red line'.
You seem to want to take this to mean a minor trasgression.

Quite the opposite in fact. A 'red line' (thin, thick, wavy or straight) is the point THAT DOES NOT GET CROSSED.

Anyone crossing the red line IMHO, is absolutely being regarded as having gone beyond the pale.

The problem you have is, if I am correct....everythinmg else you say is based on a flawed premise.

...just saying like!

brash and bold where its needed said...

brash and bold where its needed said

@Geronimo
I'm sorry, but without sources, all I have is your opinion. And right now I have my own and it conflicts with yours.

Even assuming that it was true that hashkofos are bound by halacha, are you making a claim that only Hareidim follow a halachically kasher hashkofo?

If halacha dictates hashkafo, then who do we go to to ask what is kasher hashkafa and what isnt?
Do we go to a Hareidi Rav?
This question itself is a matter of hashkafos.

So what we come down to is that wether your believe hashkofa is bound by halacha really comes down to what yor hashkafa is!
And your and mine are ot the same.

So until you present makoros you're nowhere Geronimo.

Geronimo said...

"Red Baron"

Indeed you are very confused.
A) my whole argument does not rest on the interpretation
of the red line metaphor.
B) crossing a finely drawn line ,does not put one 'beyond
the pale'.It can mean allowing oneself to become
vulnerable to speculation and allegations ,thus
disqualifying one from holding office until one is
exonerated.
C). my whole case does not depend on my
understanding of 'thin red line'
D). even if "thin....."means gross misbehaviour ,it does
not establish the guilt if one who has declared his
innocence .
E). there are many normal,level headed and intelligent
people in GG who whilst respecting the rabbis who
take a dismal view of the matter,nevertheless still
are unconvinced.Many are sure that definitely
there was nothing behind the allegations.
F). This is not a unique event in our history.
There have been accusations followed by
exoneration.The accusers were never motivated
by malice.We are human so we sometimes get
things wrong,even terribly wrong.









Geronimo said...

Brash and bold.....

Anyone who follows the dictates of Halacha is Charedi.regardless of the colour of his hat.
Hashkafot cannot clash with Halacha.
They are either Torah hashkafot or false hashkafot.
Perhaps the way the term hashkafot is used colloquially is the cause of confusion.

Abramson said...

Re "Astounded" said on 6th March 8:00

Why are we compelled to follow the published views of some of the local Rabbonim,and if we don't then we are insane,stupid or calculatedly wicked?

Have we no right to follow the opinions of other great talmidei chachomim who have not entered the fray?

There has been much denigration of Rabbonim who have been vilely slurred by those who are not prepared to accept other conclusions.



Jos said...

Abrabson,
Your questions are good,but you must realise that unfortunately we live in a society ,where thinking for oneself and not blindly following what is perceived to be public opinion,leaves one vulnerable to the crude venom and malice of our fellow men ,and to being ostracised by those who we thought were our friends.

brash and bold where its needed said...

@Geronimo

"Anyone who follows the dictates of Halacha is Charedi.regardless of the colour of his hat."

NO, that is absolutely not the case.
Anyone who follows the dictates of halacha does not put that person in the category of Charedi or Yeshivish.
Charedi/Yeshivish is a whole subculture of it's own.
Nevermind the colour of their hat, try understand that not every halachic Yid has to wear a hat.
He doesnt have to speak Yidish, or yeshivish, he doesnt have to comply to any dress code or uniform, a self imposed obligation of following chumras and consulting with a Rabbi about what colour he should paint his house, taking on customs that are not grounded in any Torah law or halacha, or showign disdain for the Israeli government and reject responsibilities for the army.

Do not impose your new system on all Yids and create a definitive bar and label for what a halachic man should be according to your perceptions.

Unbiased said...

Jos,

What an intelligent post.
You have summed up in a few words the real problem in our community.
People won't form their own opinions,or they are scared to do so.
We are a society of blindly led sheep.
Children are not encouraged to use their minds critically,and when they grow up they all bleat in unison.

Davidovich said...

There has been a lot of hysterical nonesense from posters like Sareilrosenfeld and Adloyoda about a situation, which was created by the overreaction to the pronouncements of certain rabbis.
There are no proven victims and there is no danger to potential victims.
Rav Padwa's stance on the matter has to be respected.He is entitled to his own opinion and his own approach to the matter.He has sufficient stature and integrity not to have to kowtow to all and sundry.
The way he has been insulted is unforgivable and a huge aveiroh.What right do bloggers have to ,comment on what a rov of his stature should do ?


The terrible situation is a result of various irresponsible blog sites,and the public's gossiping.
These blogs don't protect victims,they create victims.

Adloyada said...

Ah yes, Padwa is entitled to his own views re reporting or not reporting suspected abuse to the police. Unfortunately,as the Chief Executive of a charity with obligations to those the charity serves, being guided by his own views as opposed to the legal obligations incumbent on his role in the Charity just won't do.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Charity_requirements_guidance/Charity_governance/Managing_risk/vicarious.aspx#2

Sections 7 & 8 of this are particularly pertinent. And not just to Padwa:

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Our_regulatory_activity/Reporting_issues/rsinotes.aspx#d

Geronimo said...

Brash & Bold
My perception of what is a halachic man ,seems to agree with yours.
I agree with all you say in your last post except for one point; Charedi and yeshivish are not synonymous.
The term Charedi comes from a verse in Isaiah, ״שמעו דבר ה׳ החרדים אל דברו״
Chumras and outlandish dress codes are not necessary for the appellation חרדי.They may have a meaningfull place and significance for some,but they are 'added extras' and not of the essence.





Interesting said...

http://www.vosizneias.com/126011/2013/03/12/iran-ahmadinejad-under-fire-for-forbidden-physical-contact-with-chavezs-grieving-mother
So will he be forced to step out, or will he quote a heter from a rebbe, & keep changing the name.

Jos said...

Adloyoda

You do go on an awful lot about the Charity Commission !
You have revealed your non-objectivity by calling an av- bethdin by his surname only.
Has it never occurred to you that the venerable rabbi did not suspect abuse?

brash and bold where its needed, said...

@Geronimo

I do not need to take on a "still in the shtetl" mentality and mode of behaviour, dress code and lack of awareness of the outside world in order to keep halacha, learn Torah and carry out my avodah.

Your claim that someone who keeps all halacha is by definition "chareidi" does not sit well with me as well as thousand of other observant Jews that abide by the law yet reject the overarching rejectionist outlook and narrow world view that we see demonstrated by the chariedi world.

Mark said...

Adloyoda

I think you are wrong .
Rav Padwa as head of Kedassia beis din is a member of the rabbinical staff,merely an employee, and not the chief executive of the UOHC.

Bill S said...

There have been many cries for justice on the blogs.
Not many though for justice to the victim of all the scandal mongering.
There have been countless cases of innocent people who were found guilty ,and later found to have been completely innocent, and to be victims of a wrong judgement.
The police,prosecutor,judge,jury and all others involved in bringing about an erroneous verdict were doing their best,but being human they just got it wrong.
Similarly, in the present sad scenario ,we ought to consider the possibility of the Rabbonim having erred in their conclusion.We will not give them less respect for having made a bad mistake.Rabbis are fallible as we all are.
We therefor must not be disrespectful towards any of the defending rabbis ,or indeed to the accused.
Many ,who unfortunately have not been vociferous in support of him for fear of social recrimination,nevertheless are sure that the truth will out,and there will be complete exoneration.

Adloyada said...

"Mark", my understanding of Padwa's role is that it extends to the executive management of the UOHC. If he was only head of the Kedassia Beis Din, what would he be doing issuing a so-called safeguarding policy written in Hebrew and addressed to the heads of schools? Why would he be issuing and then almost immediately rescinding statements as to the membership of Divrei Chaim in UOHC? Why would he be dealing with a former schoolboy making accusations about past abuse at the hands of a teacher of a school associated with UOHC?

In any case, the obligations on UOHC and its Trustees, as with any charity, include ensuring that all employees, volunteers and nominated persons carrying out tasks under the auspices of UOHC and the organizations of which it is the umbrella organisation carry out appropriate safeguarding policies as are specified under the legally obligatory specifications and to the standards set out by the Charity Commission.

See sections 7,8 & 9 of this:
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Our_regulatory_activity/Reporting_issues/rsinotes.aspx#d

and:
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/library/safeguarding_strategy.pdf

Adloyada said...

"Bill S" is the latest of the mysterious entities urging us to prioritise
over sympathy for the alleged victims sympathy and support for a
person arrested by the police on suspicion of sexual assaults and
perverting the course of justice, and about whom five disinguished
Dayanim and world reputed Haredi rabbonim have declared that he is
not fit to carry out rabbinical office

The special pleading here is that those accused of such crimes should
be placed in a separate category from those accused of murder,
grievous bodily harm, terrorism, treason,acts of torture, drug dealing, trafficking women
for immoral purposes, extortion through threats of violence, blackmail and the remaining range of hideous
crimes, and given anonymity because it could so damage an innocent
person (as accusations of those other hideous crimes presumably do
not), and there are regularly those who make false or malicious
accusations.

Try reading the verdict of the Director of Public Prosecutions who has
reported on research done on this very subject of false accusations of
sexual crimes being rife, and found that that's a myth;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare

To understand how very rare are false accusations (though of course
they do exist, are taken very seriously if alleged *and if found to be
fit for charges to bought, are prosecuted in turn*) there were over
the 17 months reviewed fewer than fifty cases brought of false reports
of rape, domestic violence compared with 5,500+ of rape prosecutions
and 111,800+ of domestic violence accusations:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare

Bill S said...

Adloyoda

You really have distorted my comment.

There was no suggestion of prioritising or special pleading.
Just read what I have written carefully.
The scurrilous attacks both on the blogs and amongst the rabble rousing ,scandal mongering gossipers,is a totally unwarranted and reprehensible reaction to the rabbis' pronouncements.


Your intelligent,objective and lucid comment about the late rabbi Domb ז׳ל ( in marked contrast to the filth posted by Red Baron and others) is admirable and praiseworthy.

But I feel you have been less objective about Rabbi Halpern שליט׳א,
People seem to get more worked up where there are allegations of sexual crime.
I did not suggest a privilege of anonymity,I only suggested that allegations should not be confused with proven guilt.
Distinguished scholars and rabbis of world repute who are convinced of Rabbi Halpern's innocence probably outnumber the condemning rabbis.
It is apparent that you have no background knowledge of the present tragic scenario.
Innocents have been arrested, and the righteous have been declared against,and the truth of the matter was revealed later.I'm sure you know this.
I must again compliment you on your comments on the Rabbi Domb blog.
,

Bill S said...

Adloyoda

The statistics as you quote them ,are not in reality accurate.
There were only about 50 successful prosecutions for false rape claims,not only 50 false reports as you worded it.

It should be contrasted with convictions for rape not rape prosecutions.
In any case bringing these figures is not relevant.
The likelihood or rather unlikelihood of the rabbi's guilt should not be commented on by you, who obviously has no knowledge of the background to the case.
I mean to say how can you compare a statistic based on the trials of thousands of men the vast majority being low lives ,with an accusation of unrabinnical behaviour levelled against a man of spotless credentials

amie said...

Bill S: where do you get your figures of about 50 successful prosecutions for false rape claims? The report refers to a total of 37 claims, which means the number of convictions will be even less, making it even less of a real danger.
It says:
5,651 prosecutions for rape. During the same period there were 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape..three for making false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.
If you look at the stats on this CPS guidance to myths relating to rape complaints:Myth 7:"Facts:studies have indicated that only 2% of all reported rapes are false, which is slightly less than false reporting in all other crimes."

You would do well to study also Myth 5: If She Didn't Scream, Fight or Get Injured, It Wasn't Rape
Facts: rapists use many manipulative techniques to intimidate and coerce their victims;
Myth 10: If the victim didnt complain immediately it wasnt rape
Fact:the trauma of rape can cause feelings of shame and guilt which might inhibit a victim from making a complaint. This fact was recognised by a Court of Appeal case that a late complaint does not necessarily mean that its a false complaint.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/societal_myths/#a6