Friday, 22 February 2013

The Breach Position


We are where we are and a chap, who until recently was a senior member of the most senior rabbinical body of our community, has been arrested on suspicion of sexual assault. So what does the body do? Forget about the rabbis. They're not trained in crises handling and the best one can expect from them is to stroke their beards and call on their flock to repent. After all, our leaders are only under suspicion while we're a bunch of hoary sinners at the best of times, or at least so we're told. You would also not expect our Chief to do anything but keep his counsel this time round given what happened when he was last consulted on such delicate issues. Silence after all doesn't make particularly good TV viewing.

But what of our lay leaders? What do they do at a time like this? You know like the robin-round Rosh Hakohol. Or the chairman of the external affairs committee who week in week out pontificates on neither here nor there. Or the spokesman and occasional 'QC' who graces the airwaves on everything from the decadence of universities to the equality of women (and more recently has been manning the child line protecting kids from cops). Or the worm hunters, the stocking weavers, the skirt measurers, the grave diggers and all the other heavenly enforcers making their abode in our square mile.

Do they have nothing to say? No concern, no guidance, no comment? Perhaps the executive committee has gone into plenary session to determine whether this is a matter for the external affairs or the internal affairs or whether it's an affair at all. But still they could let off some smoke to tell the masses that "we are dealing with this". We've had some chizuk from the boys in blue so why not them?

But wait it's Purim too so surely that must merit something. And so it did with the result above for all to see. Because as they say, "It was recently come to light" and not a minute too soon.

Didn't we know that this is all just a bad dream? A silly prank by some chevre dressed up with a flashing light on their car. The joke of course could only go so far and what really matters are those filthy perverted photographers. How dare they breach our mechitze fortifications to perv on our womenfolk dancing? What do they think? That they cholilo pole dance at the Decorium, do a Harlem Shake at the 'communal' wedding hall hired at preferential rates (not clear whose preference, though) or prance Gangnam Style at the Prince and Princess? Let the photographers take their proste lenses and stick them up elsewhere because if they're not careful we'll turn our lenses on them and they won't like it.

And so at this delicate time, when the world is examining what them rabbis get up to, trust our Union to speak up for the man in the street. Or in this case the photographer in the hall.

You've just got to love them. The timing, the perspicacity, the sagaciousness, the sheer brilliance of coming out with a notice like this at the end of a week we've just had and 2 days before Purim. Don't you just want to go up to each and every one of our Dear Leaders and give them a big hug. This is the crowning glory to their most successful winter on record and still they could outdo themselves even further.

As I said, it is Purim when no joke is too corny and no wit too flat so let me share just another one with you.

Q: Why does the Union provide a mother and baby home?
A: Because they're always in the breach position.

Cha cha cha, s'iz git, vos?

79 comments:

Boy shall we laugh said...

You are funny Tickle

charvonah said...

Bravo, Tickle. The hypocrisy you identify is absolutely breathtaking.

In order that our children can grow up to respect our Rabbonim, it is now time for every shul in North West London to disassociate from the Union, if they have not already done so. Let it start now so that we can lean on Seder night in a month's time and declare that we are 'benei chorin'

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjYyakkvJpE

Avi Gelley said...

Have they ever looked at the woman's dancing at a Decorium wedding?

I only wish there were issues of Tznius and serious breaches of halachah going on, it would make Stamford Hill weddings much more enjoyable.

Speilman said...

>Cha cha cha, s'iz git, vos?
Trademark Abe'le B and the joke is of his calibre too. I hear he too can be a litigious so and so. Love your piece though.

Anonymous said...

How do we know that this letter is not a fake, or just Tickle's idea of a Purim joke?!

Anonymous said...

ALL 4 HAVE BEEN RELEASED!!

Anonymous said...

Someone needs to remind the UOHC that a wedding is a private function carried out in private premises. Who goes where and does what etc. is nobody's business except the host. Telling people what to do at a wedding is like telling them what to do in their private homes.
Also I have personally attended many Kedassia supervised functions which were fully mixed. Most, if not all, of the women there had fully uncovered hair, short or no sleeves, low necklines and high hems etc. And as for the teenage guests. I leave that to your imagination.

Good Shabbos and Simchas Purim

BLBH supporter said...

When Yisro outlined the qualities for leadership to Moshe Rabbenu, you can see that those qualities are lacking in the leaders we have today.

1) Anshe chayil who don't speak up, (except for trivial things),
2) Yireh elokim who are looking at texts when davening,
3) Anshe emmes who fiddle their accounts, and tell people not to have unkosher mobile phones and internet, yet use these themselves.
4) Soneh votzuh (see Rashi and Ramban there)but those who are litigious appear to be excluded.

So why do they step up to the mark and volunteer to be leaders, when they do not fulfill the minimum requirements? Most of us know our own deficiencies and don't make any graet claims for ourselves, but these men......

Are there any anshe chayil in the Union?

dynamitten fm oxford with a streimel said...

Not hypocrisy but totally, breathtakingly crass. One must hope that the Union does not reflect the views of the genuine hassidish kehilla of SH: Look after the niggling tiny bits, & the biggest issues will take care of themselves.

Maybe the photographer should combine his activity with other worse 'actions', then perhaps he'll b ignored!

photographers guild said...

I suppose the answer is to have two sets of photographers publishing two albums - one male and one female.

dynamitten fm oxford with a streimel said...

..but as addendum..is this a purim joke? its timing of release is so ridiculous, & there is no date on the letter..

A Plea said...

I do not personally know CH, or the other three people who were arrested. It may be indeed be that in this case no criminal activity had taken place, but hopefully the police will have all the resources and cooperation from members in our kehilah to investigate this.

However, this incidence should not overshadow all other cases of abuse there are going on as I am writing among us. One may believe that the term "abuse" is a made up concept by the goyim, but people do suffer. I beg and plea from others, do not comfort yourself that all the attacks on rabbonim are just nasties. There are real people who are suffereing every day (men and women) through sexual, physical and emotional abuse.

Please, please seek help and go to the police. Our Rabbonim cannot and should not deal with criminal matters. Many abusers will continue to abuse others. The rabbonim have many other considerations, apart from your wellbeing. So it is far better to seek outside help.

The police deal with these type of cases all the time, and they will understand what you are going through.

Uman said...

This p'sak is interesting for another reason.

There is a concept of 'Umon Osek b'mlachto' - A person busy in his work will not have prohibited thoughts, whereas under normal circumstances the activity is forbidden.

So for example, it is forbidden to watch animals mating in case that endangers licentious thoughts. But a farmer is permitted to physically mate animals together, because that is his work and chazal decided becasue of the pressure of his work there was no risk of those thoughts.

This concept is used to permit a male lifeguard during women's swimming sessions if a female lifeguard can not be found (although I would agree it is far preferable to use a female lifeguard). It is also the hetter for a male doctor to do whatever necessary with a women patient if a female doctor is not available (although of course this should be avoided). And the same should apply to a photographer, certainly if he is not Jewish and the the possible problem is only whether the woman themselves can dance in front of him.

Can you see where I am going? I do believe that in certain quarters this hetter is being suggested to justify certain (denied) allegations...

But it is clear the Rabbinate do not seem to attach weight to this heter....

Simchas Purim to all.

yitz said...

This is a rather blanket ban. Is the issue that there are photos being taken of females - (commandment 614: thou shalt not take a photo of a female even for private use) or that the photographers may be male (and jewish)? or female and lesbian?

At the risk of making your otherwise very justifiable rant sound stupid, are you sure that this is not a purim joke?

SH educated said...

Mr. Tickle

A good Voch and a freilechen Purim

True chareidi yiddishkeit in London owes you a greta debt of gratitude. You have opened our eyes. Thank you.

May all the b'rochos of this period come to you.

Israeli observer said...

Hard to believe this is actually from the UOHC but people who are challenged do challenging things. After he was physically stopped from entering the joint Meeting of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudas Yisroel and Degel HaTorah [to which he was not invited], the Bostoner Rebbe in Har Nof put out a מחאה נמרצת against the criminals. Many thought that was an early Purim joke as well until the jester himself gave an hilarious interview on the radio when he repeated the whole thing over again. This time the buffoonish radio, or actually TV interviews, were given first, so there cannot be much doubt that this missive is really from the UOHC and is serious. After all if a very experienced counselor cannot earn a parnossa any more, why should a lowly photographer be allowed to.

Another curious individual said...

Where was Melave Malka tonight?

REP the Purim Reb ? said...

Considering the CH scandal, the Union's absurd behaviour, REP's by now infamous video clip, and this latest idiocy, it is safe to say that now Padwa is not even fit to be a Purim Rebbe anymore.

Anonymous said...

GD
http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/britain-s-top-cardinal-accused-of-inappropriate-act_831225.html

We have nothing to be ashamed of!

Anonymous said...

This is a very old letter send to Simchas Nissuin users.

Get a life.

Time we had some Jewish Hashkofo on whether the Klal or the yochid comes first. Whether one person's pain matters more than any chillul hashem. and if so the Rabbonim themselves should escort the victims to the police stations.

The Red Baron said...

GD
http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/britain-s-top-cardinal-accused-of-inappropriate-act_831225.html

We have nothing to be ashamed of!


Ahhh...the 2 wrongs make a right argument.

We have plenty to be ashamed about - as do they.

It's only due to half-wits like you that we have these problems.

Jack said...

This is an ancient letter designed to confuse.

Nothing is said about a man "photographing" women

The problem is "going amongst the women"

Reading what it actually says
"that a male photographer should not go amongst the women"

Thats all it says

Taking pictures from the side not from "amongst the women" is not discussed and is not a problem.

Zanvil said...

"Time we had some Jewish Hashkofo on whether the Klal or the yochid comes first."

The klal and the yochid are on the same side. Everyone wants an end to abuse, cover-ups and intimidation.

Anonymous said...

GD to 10:59
Its only 'double' wits like you who take posts on purim seriously.

Yossi Heller said...

I am so glad that it was recently come to the attention. Finally the rabbinate of UOHC is taking the Heaven-shattering breaches of tznius and other more serious aveiros seriously and are taking positive steps to put a halt to it. Such as issuing an undated, unsigned and unintelligible letter. Well done U bunch of shmOHCs

Yossi Heller said...

Keep a watch out for a Kedassia "approved" photographer, to be advertised in the JT.

Nehorai said...

Anyone looking at blog comments and hearing the beis hamedrash chatter ought to realise that sadly the true ideals and values of traditional Yiddishkeit ,have been usurped by a blind and unfeeling adherence only to the ritual observance of halachic rules and a lack of passion in promoting and adhering to the lofty ideals of ahavas Yisroel and mesirrus nefesh for the clal and for kvod shomayim.

Small minds can not begin to understand the madreigos of gehoibene tzaddikim,who are willing to compromise on strict guidelines of inyonei Keddusha ( of course without being oiver aveirous,but not being permissable to the average yied)which might be misconstrued by the hammon am .

Absolutely Anonymous said...

Forbes Thought Of The Day

“ It is often easier to fight for a principle than to live up to it. ”

— Adlai Stevenson

Abramson said...

When you get non-entities calling Rabbonim and great talmidei chachomim by their surnames only and making derogatory remarks about them,then you know what a rubbish blog you are reading .
It's a blog that attacks Torah true Yiddishkeit under the pretence of sticking up for victims.

Jos said...

Uman has no idea of what he's talking about.
Completely wrong halachic statements ,made by an ignoramus.
A blog is not the place for halachic discussion.

Oman said...

Jos,

Care to elaborate rather than insult?

Don't say pikuach nefesh - nobody asked her to go swimming.

Jos said...

Oman,
As I have stated a blog is the correct medium for a halachic discussion.
If you ask a Dayan he will, I'm sure ,elucidate all the errors in Uman's statement.

Anyone who spouts nonsensical halachic opinions is a fair target for insults.

Disgusted said...

The publication of Avi Gelley's comment about Decorium weddings shows how low this blog has sunk.

Just another filthy anti-Yiddishkeit remark.

It also shows that Mr.IYTU is not taking his editorial duty seriously

halpernologist said...

Isn't it odd? Why do so many commentators get upset when a Rabbi is mentioned by surname only? It's common practice in the academic world even when referring to those at the top of their field. It aids free-thought: let's not get hung-up by a title - focus rather on content and good argument.

You guys need therapy for a complete cure from 'surname skipping reactive syndrome' but forcing yourselves would help. Start by repeating the following ad nauseum (not hard):

Halpern, Halpern, Halpern, Berl, Berl, Berl, Cohn, Cohn, Cohn, Padwa, Padwa, Padwa, Chuna, Chuna, Chuna, Pinchos, Pinchos, Pinchos, Ehrentrau, Ehrentrau, Ehrentrau, Roberts, Roberts, Roberts, Hager, Hager, Hager, Chaim, Chaim, Chaim, Knopfler, Knopfler, Knopfler.....

Rules:

1. Feel free to make your own list.
2. Add several more names daily.
2. Repeat several times a day. Tip: exercise in bog thereby saving yourself from a 'bittul torah' risk.

halpernologist said...

... I correct myself.

Name of condition is 'title skipping reactive syndrome' not 'surname skipping reactive syndrome'.

Apologies mine.

Kedassia man said...

Hello everybody. Been off-line for a while.

I remember this. There is a background to this notice which came out a while ago. I was at the wedding, in Stamford Hill, where it happened.

The photographer was in the ladies side taking photos of the women dancing. A heimishe yungerman, a guest and not as far as I know a close relative called him over and told him to go out immediately as this is ossur al pi halocho. The photographer approached one of the mothers (chosson or kallah, I don't know which) and asked her if he should leave. She replied "Ask my husband". By the time the photographer found and spoken to the husband the yungerman had already spoken to him and a bit of debate had broken out among the guest. Some in support and some against.

It got a bit heated and eventually the photographer, who was rather discourteously (understatement!) spoken to by some of the guests went away some time before the wedding ended. The next day there was a bit of kefuffle in Stamford Hill and this notice appeared in the shuls on the following Friday.

Jos said...

CORRECTION
A blog is NOT the correct medium for an halachic discussion.
Sorry !!

Very curious said...

Was there a minyan in DC on Purim? If yes how many present ? Was there a large rachmonus crowd? Or curios crowd?
Was there a Tisch, apples, shlachmonus, ausleiz gelt?
Were men clad in thick gatels & colone, showering him with pidyonois?
How was it a BS & the Approach?
Were there any hero's welcome home dos?
Or did a curtain of silence prevail with a low-key Purim?
This blog has become nervous, & the others don't seem to have info.

madonna said...

Is it halachah, and from whence? Is that all people have to worry about in today's world? If you don't approve then look/go away or hire a female photographer at the outset for the women,although that's probably forbidden somewhere as well!

Women should not only be regarded as baby machines and/or enticers of men towards sexual sin by their assumed attractiveness. They have individual personalities, sensitivities, intelligence,and souls. So why regard all the female species on sight, albeit young, middle-aged, old or ancient as one conglomerate agent-provocateur of sexual sin in men?

me said...

So its muttar to go to Spain and Nice etc for summer holidays, share a pool with wife, daughters, sons in laws, daughters in laws, separate times of course (not) plenty of friends and family mixing at weddings and sheva Brochos, but one photographer who is doing a job, who doesn't care about someone elses wife as he sees thousands of faces has to be ousted. The real drama happens and it has to be covered up by pettiness. All these dogooders will get a shock when they go up to shomayim for being so sort sighted and high and mighty.

Big son so rash said...

Well when was this notice put out?

realist said...

We have to stop mocking the Rabbonim. Watching women dance can be a "turn on" for some men, and it is therefore appropriate in a mechitza setting to have a female photographer on the ladies side. There is nothing radical about this. Many male professional photographers have a female partner, so they can work as a team in such weddings.

Women should not feel insulted that men find them attractive. They should take it as a compliment.

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

I have a question for those who hold a male photographer can be used. Photographers often touch subjects to pose them. Is that allowed if they use a towel? Does it make a difference if the photographer has smichah, a streimel a shul, and local yichus?

shalom said...

Simple, do what I did and have a goyishe video-man. Sorted.

Nachzor Le'Inyoneinu said...

Hubris reigns at BHDC. The bailed arrestee informed his devoted oilom that his release was reminiscent of a similar erev shabbos release experienced by 'der heilige Sanzer', who had also been arrested on trumped up charges, although I doubt they were of a similar nature. Released in the nick of time, he arrived home just before shabbos and celebrated with his relieved chasidim. So too CH. He declared once again his complete innocence of all accusations laid against him, and assured his adoring crowd that no police charges will ever be brought against him.

Meanwhile, one of the other arrestees, known for decades of distinguished communal service, appeared at his own seuda dressed up as a convict. Clearly he is taking his arrest very seriously.

Revach vehatzola yaamod layehudim!! Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside, to know that justice has prevailed, and that the greatest Jewish conspiracy of modern times has been exposed for all to see.

No doubt an apology from the police is imminent.

Geronimo said...

Can't you read simple English.
The prohibition was against photographing DANCING women
Don't tell me that you don't think the sight of young attractive girls and women dancing spiritidly is not a sight that is potentionally sexually arousing to a normal healthy male.

It's so sad that so many bloggers distort things for their own nasty agendas.
If you don't like reasonable guidance from our rabbis because it doesn't suit your desired lifestyle then keep quiet about it.
No one is forcing you to be religious.Do what you want,and don't object to the upholding of our holy Torah and its laws.

Bill S said...

Methinks that all this denigrating of frummers is getting out of hand.
There always has been an element of hypocrisy in our community but the vast majority are sincere in their devotion to the Torah and its principles.
It's those who for social reasons want to be considered frum
but don't like the restrictions involved who cause all the trouble.

Oihave Yisroel said...

Really 'madonna' the ways in which you write that our womenfolk are regarded are only in your imagination.

We regard our women very highly and our laws of tznius protect them from abuse.

Golders Greener said...

"Geronimo said...
If you don't like reasonable guidance from our rabbis because it doesn't suit your desired lifestyle then keep quiet about it."

I am sure I speak for many frum people who do want reasonable guidance from our rabbis. In Golders Green, from most of the Rabbonim I know, we certainly do receive reasonable guidance, whether it is to do with tznius, pro-eruv, anti-eruv, etc. However what we don't want is blatant hypocrisy and corruption, which the ruling body in question appears to be riddled with (and they can sue me for all they like because I have so much evidence to back this up)

Jack said...

Geronimo said...


Can't you read simple English.
The prohibition was against photographing DANCING women

Sorry but that's your own private prohibition.

The notice was not written in simple English

It clearly does not say what, the Issuir is.
It talks about

1 entering the ladies section,

2 amongst the women,

3 photographing them whilst dancing.


So in "simple" english which one is the problem?

In "Simple" English it is a stupid message designed to confuse people and give them a guilt conscience without making any Issur

Distraught said...

I feel that I must respond to 'nachzor le'inyoneinu's' nasty comments.
The hatred he shows in his cynical weasely words is abhorrent.
How happy he would have been if the arrestees had been kept in jail.

This sort of hatred caused the churban Habayis.
Timid bystanders rise up against the destructive forces which threaten Klal Yisroel .
Every voice counts,

halpernologist said...

Geronimo on 25 February 2013 23:41 said 'No one is forcing you to be religious.'

Don't peddle the big lie.

If you grow up in a strictly chareidi family, only go to strictly chareidi schools have little secular education, are married-off by twenty one, have three children by twenty five - you have very few options.

You HAVE been forced.

To Nachzor Le'Inyoneinu said...

You're hilarious!!

BLBH supporter said...

I am not sure if people are aware that people can be put on the Violent and Sex Offender Register even if they have not been convicted of an offence.

VoR said...

To me Towelgate is an illustration of two conflicting ideas. The dangers of relaxing strict boundaries; and the objectification effect that repressing female contact can have on young men, which can follow them throughout their life. No easy answers to the problem of the yetzer harah...

The Red Baron said...

"and our laws of tznius protect them from abuse"


except that they don't, do they?

Please said...

Any one could post some Youtubes of DC BS & the Approach this year Purim, & hero's welcome home.
Thanks

Geronimo said...

Dear halpernologist
Of all the blog comments your last one is the saddest.
Wearing a Borsalino and observing the trappings of religion does not make you a religious person.
Neither will growing up in an observant family turn you into a religious person.
If you grow up in a family where religious observance is imbued with passion ,joy and sincerity,with a true devotion devoid of hypocrisy,then you will be religious by choice.
No other way of life will appeal to you.
If you feel trapped into a sham culture ,then you'll have to be very grown up about it. Forget the nonsense and humbug you were exposed to ,and start again on firm foundations.
Let the true values of Yiddishkeit be your guide.
Find a good rebbe and start from scratch.
You can be FFB and yet become a baal-teshuva.

Geronimo said...

VoR
Frum young men who have no no intimate contact with females, will not come to "objectify" women.
Objectification is a rather stupid term originating in the feminist movement,a movement that has no relevance to Yiddishkeit.
A boy brought up in a truly toirah-true environment can be chaste and suffer no emotional damage,he won't 'objectify' his wife ,if his parents gave each other love,respect and support in full measure.
The boys who have problems are the ones that get into bad company,or are exposed to double standards at home.

Thanks said...

@ Please

The welcome home may have been on shabbos, so no video evidence!!

Wonder what the audience of Shabbos Hagodol drasha will be like in each respective establishment!!!

'May the one who makes peace in the heavens above help us to make peace with one another. Amen'

P said...

Can we have some updates please? Hot of the Press, Velvel etc, where are you all?
Is the Beis Din coming or not? With or without this infamous to'en? There's still plenty you can still report to us on whilst staying within the rules.

VoR said...

@Geronimo - this problem extends to both heterosexual and homosexual abusers, so perhaps my comments are wrong; but to deny there is a problem of charedi frum men who have been through the confines of the chadorim and yeshivos and emerge with all the traditions of frumkeit, yet engage in sexually abusing others is not only myopic but also an abrogation of our religious obligation lo saamod al dam reechoh. Something is going wrong.

Please said...

@Thanks
I thought that in DC if you hold the Video camera through a towel one could video on Shabboss according to their Rav. I guess I was wrong.
Didn't some guys install secret Video cameras while the Rabbi was absent? Even more couldn't they bring a goy to video the welcome home? It was before shkia after all.
Was there no real chosid who would be mechalell shabboss to video such a great happening? After all there are many tapes of the Satmarer Rebbes Shabboss Torah, from whaTt I understand not only shovevim Torah which was after nacht.
How about Purim was it so silent no one curious? Or were all scared to enter?
I am waiting for a Vimeo or youtube, or possibly Tickle could post one.

Devastated said...

I am beginning to realise that all the hate and invective we have seen on the blogs over the past 5 or 6 months came from people that felt that they had personally been offended or marginalised by the "frummy" establishment.
Your grievances may be genuine and your pain bitter.

Please consider that revenge is destructive and soul destroying.
By all means be vociferous in your protests,but don't resort to insults and denigration of those from whom you might have expected better.
Please don't try to destroy careers or organisations .
Be constructive in your criticism,find the right ears to aim it at.
Blogging won't bring correction or healing.

Do some thing constructive in building bridges between factions in the community.

It's much easier to smash than build,but you end up living amongst the rubble.

Geronimo said...

To VoR
Putting children through good schools,cheders or yeshivas is a relatively minor part of the obligation of parents in the bringing up of children to be good people.

It's mainly in the home where children learn how to live a life that is the way G-d wants us to live.

We know that despite having a very uninspiring home life some children go on to become wonderful people,but we must not rely on miracles.


What has gone wrong? Parents have handed over to others,the teaching of the true values of the Torah.

We need good parents( and grandparents uncles aunts and even neighbours ) if we are to successfully preserve the continuity of our hallowed traditions.

Don't dare to leave the future or your generations to teachers and rebbes only.

A child whose main ambition is to have a high material standard of life and does not know what he is missing if he is lacking in avioidas Hashem, cheesed and kedusha will never know happiness,even if he becomes a billionaire.

The home is the place to teach this lesson,if you want to have really good children.
Teaching is not about do's and dont's,it's about infecting children with a happy enthusiasm for what is right ,good and worthwhile.

We can turn bad children into good ones,but we must start by becoming better ourselves.
Buying them black hats or thick tights is not where our duty ends.
Help your abusive friend ,child or neighbour to grow into a good and caring person.Do it with love and tact.

Stamford Hiller said...

to P.

There is no B'D' while there is a police investigation.

The Police investigation is far from over!!

Velvel's second cousin said...

1 The BD is cancelled on legal advice kedassia have received.

2 The Google disclosure order was overturned in court (so we're safe from terrorism).

3 The 4 have had their passports taken and have certain bail restrictions.

4 Anyone who has been the victim of criminal activity of any sort relating to this affair should call the special Incident Line that was set up specifically for this: 0208 733 5062

getzel said...

Dear "Devastated",

You are neither 'devastated' nor are you 'beginning to realise' anything.

What you, and a few others like you, are trying to do, is consistently deflect responsibility for the dramatic events of the last few months, away from those responsible and onto bloggers and commenters.

The only people to blame are as follows:

1. him
2. the Rabbis that shamefully defend him because of who he his
3. the laymen (sic) who have shamefully stood by him, thereby deluding him into thinking he could brazen it out
4. neighborhood busybodies who have tried to make the whole case vanish

melchett mike said...

Not the view of an "insider", but an honestly held one all the same (apologies if it offends - not my purpose) . . .

http://melchettmike.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/chaimll-fix-it-when-asking-the-rovver-is-asking-for-bovver/

Anonymous said...

I would like to apologise to the gentleman who set up this website and to all those who have written on it. I have formerly been an open critic of the site but I have now come to recognise and to realise that it too is providing a service to the community,

Jos said...

Getzel,I must really take you to task for the way you have misrepresented"devastated's" comments.

It's pretty clear that he wasn't referring to any 'events' (as you call them) .

It is obvious that he is referring to the general reaction to those 'events',without expressing any opinion on what did or did not happen.

I must admit that I am also 'devastated' by the way some of the community have reacted.

There seem to be to many cries for 'blood' and not enough for 'healing'

Sami said...

@Velvel's Second cousin

Not sure where you get your info from, Keddasia have nothing to do with the Bes Din, it is the UOHC, which claim they have nothing to do with Kedassia or Addas Burial Society.

Thanks for providing the phone number for the victims.... Many victims wont come forward as they want to forget about their ordeal and move forward in life....

Absolutely Anonymous said...

Mike - you are as much as an insider as anyone else.

Re the previous posts about forcing people to be religious - see Rb Dessler / Rb Wolbe et al who address this topic (of course you are 'forced' into certain patterns of behaviour by your upbringing but the point of Judaism is to develop a real sense of religion within the framework that it provides after you mature.)

melchett mike said...

Thank you, AA. I am a Dzikówer/Ropczycer Yeed (as well as being ex-Hasmo)... though I am not sure Rav Naftali would have had much to do with me if he had read my blog! ;-)

dynamitten fm oxford with a streimel said...

@melchet mike

i should respond to your content on your site, but i dont frequent blogs save this one, & u did refer us fm here.

To your comment that people shouldnt be going to rabbonim for therapy so what did they expect
if u mean to say they should expect being taken advantage of, i dont think therapists are much better trained than rabbonim in susceptibility to vices. so they shouldn't have expected this.

If u mean rabbonim are not equipped to solve the problems, well a powerful argument that they are so equipped is included in much psychologist theory which requires the patient to have belief in the dr, & the dr to have empathy with the patient. this bonding allows healing. a rebbe is the ultimate belief system, for good or bad.

of course this doesnt exonerate abuse, but explains the potential good a rov can do, that a therapist cant in the jewish or non jewish world.

Kedassia man said...

Sami.

I must correct you. The Kedassia letter-headings state quite clearly "Kashrus Committee of the UOHC".
The Kedassia logo (seal) that you is on every Kedassia hechshered product (and BTW that dfoesn't mean supervised) states in both Hebrew and English "Conforming to the requirements of the UOHC".

The luach states quite clearly that the Kedassia is the kashrus body, i.e. one of the services the UOHC (claims it) provides for the community.

Absolutely Anonymous said...

"dynamitten fm oxford with a streimel said...

To your comment that people shouldnt be going to rabbonim for therapy so what did they expect
if u mean to say they should expect being taken advantage of, i dont think therapists are much better trained than rabbonim in susceptibility to vices."

- notwithstanding the fact that the author of I'm OK You're OK spent quite a while in gaol for doing just this, therapists are trained to reject advances from patients (to that extent)

"If u mean rabbonim are not equipped to solve the problems, well a powerful argument that they are so equipped is included in much psychologist theory which requires the patient to have belief in the dr, & the dr to have empathy with the patient. this bonding allows healing. a rebbe is the ultimate belief system, for good or bad"

- having a belief system is one third of therapy. Two thirds of therapy is determining what has gone wrong in the patients belief system to lead them to the state that they are in currently. Having a non-rabbinic and objective therapist is far more likely to divulge the answer to this question that going to a pastoral leader.

dynamitten fm oxford with a streimel said...

@ absolutely anonymous

i tend to disagree regarding importance percentages of contributory factors, though even 1/3rd cannot be underestimated.

"common features in pschotherapies:
it is the context of an intense confiding relationship....capable of fostering hope...realistic expectations of being helped..so crucial in combating demoralization...must occur in the context of optimal emotional arousal..."
Preston Phd 'Integrative Brief Therapy' quoting Frank , Strupp et al