Thursday, 28 February 2013

Ost of Eden

Ost resignationJust when you’ve given up hope in our entire leadership along comes someone to restore your faith in humanity.

Step forward the real “Angel Gabriel” Ost. Arrested on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, he had the good sense and decency to step down in the interim from his position as CEO of Shomrim North West while he fights to clear his name.

You may think that is not particularly remarkable and is exactly what any sensible person in his position would do. Alas, you would not have been living in Jewish London for the last half year if you harboured such thoughts.

If only the main protagonist would have mustered the same dignity and courage and acted in a likewise manner, he would have saved the broader community, the UOHC, his own shul and followers, his family including his elderly father and, above all, himself the shame and disgrace that has justifiably been heaped upon them all. He could then have tried to clear his name away from the limelight and without dragging everyone along with him.

And if he was not capable of such a momentous decision there should have been someone at the UOHC to tell him what was obvious to everyone but to the Dear Leaders. But as we have learned to our cost, not only do these people have no vestige of self respect they do not even possess the modicum of sense to act in their own good and simply for their self preservation.

They will undoubtedly claim that Ost has acted in a Catholic manner and that true Da’as Torah mandates holding on by the skin of their teeth and the more intense the battle the greater the Kiddush Hashem. And let them delude themselves for never will they recognise the unpalatable truth that they are way beyond hope and redemption and there is nowhere for them to go but walk the plank.

Gavriel may be under suspicion but it is this lot who are truly doomed.

76 comments:

Betrayed Former Supporter said...

Extraordinary. I've never heard of a frum Jew stepping down from a kehillah position over allegations of inappropriate behaviour.

There is strength in the younger generation, they have probably absorbed some good habits from the Goyim.

Clarification said...

He was accused of something which even if true doesn't make him a villain by Yiddishe standards. It is a debatable issue at worst. Ch has been accused of being a Shaigetz in the worst way, such that the mere consideration of the possible truth of the allegation puts him in the worst light so you can't compare.

dynamitten said...

tickle

u write some may say resignation to avoid dispute may be considered a caatholic way.

to avoid machlokes, even to resign, has been the hallmark of many gedolim throughout the ages. To cause harm within communities, even more so, though gedolim have not caused harm deliberately.

it is this rather than the allegations which is most disheartening. Surely he should have cleared his name quietly as a sacrifice. And to compare himself to the Tzanzer z'l, to be on such a level, would surely have required a modicum of self sacrifice.

I cannot opine whether he is guilty of the other charges, but of this he is evidently wanting. And this is frighteningly more wide ranging in harm, than the physical acts he is alleged to have committed.

Self Hating Jew who believes that anything good by Yidden must come from the Goyim said...

@ Betrayed Former Supporter

You said "They have probably absorbed some good habits from the Goyim.

What an antisemitic statement!

Bob said...

Well Done Gavriel, hopefully others will follow suit where required...

Anonymous said...

We will we will miss you

Spelling correction said...

Oskim is with a samech

shimi said...

Let me get this clear!!!
No one needed Shomrim in NW11 or NW4,
oh but the Shomrim will tell you its not true, we deal with big cases all the time bla bla bla, Listen my friends, before Shomrim all was very peaceful, the only reason why Shomrim started is purely they love attention, being important, having a radio, we are so cool, so do me a favour Guv, no one will miss you at the shomrim and you can all step down with him, as we would not no the difference.

Oh yes, and thanks for all your hard work! i got to say that the Police do a remarkable job in Barnet, we simply dont need you cool guys Shomrim.

Pro community support groups said...

Shimmie is a guy who wasn't accepted to shomrim I guess.
They do a fantastic job and onlying a nutcase can compare them to the MET Police
Shimmie your probably the guy who thinks that Hatzolah is not needed and also want to be cool either a total fool or wasn't accepted to either and judging by your comments probably both...

Perplexed said...

Has everybody forgotten that CH DID RESIGN from his public positions at the VERY BEGINNING of this saga!!!!

He remained as Rav of his own private shul in his own home, and if there are people who wish to blindly pray along with him, it is entirely up to them!!!

meier said...

@Shimi

Absolute shame on you to decry Shomrim. Guv Ost has done us a tremendous service. See JC Dec 28th re Shomrim (abridged version below)

Volunteers from the Shomrim community security group thwarted an attempted fraud in Golders Green last week. They were called as scammers worked to trick a couple into handing over credit cards and PIN details.

A Jewish pensioner received a phone call from a woman claiming to be from HSBC bank. She was fooling the victim to dial 999 into believing he was reporting card misuse to the police.

What the woman did not know was that the man’s wife had simultaneously called Shomrim on her mobile phone.

Seven members of Shomrim’s rapid reaction team waited in the couple’s Bridge Lane home and in unmarked cars outside. When the “courier” arrived, Shomrim apprehended him. Police later arrived and arrested him.

Barnet Police said a 27-year-old man from north London was arrested on suspicion of fraud — and driving while disqualified — following the incident.

Superintendent Mark Strugnell said: “This case exemplifies how important is the co-operation of the community to tackle crime successfully”.

shomrim fan said...

You probably have never called Shomrim, and show how ignorant you are with your above comments, and seeing that Barnet has the highest burglary rate in london (according to 2012 - 2013 statistics) I sincerely hope you never need to call them in an emergency, and use their confidentual, reliable and profetional service, even though their "2 min" response time provides reassurance and ensures criminals are caught long before the police (30 min response time) decide to turn up.

shomrim admirer said...

no one needs shomrim? the police doing a wonderful job? are you living in dreamland?

Get a life said...

Shimi, you missed the point completely. We're not debating here whether Shomrim is a necessary or superflous body. We're observing the conduct of a man, who has chosen to suspend his communal work pending a police investigation. Shomrim is a hobby (to each his own), but the essence of a person is revealed in times of personal crisis.

Kol Hakavod Gavriel.

ploni2007 said...

Shimi

Whilst you are, of course entitled to your opinion, I am sure there are many people in NW London who would disagree with you. People who have benefitted from their help and assistance given in an entirely selfless manner. I personally know of many such instances - but obviously you don't.

By the way - do you also believe that Hatzola is superfluous to requirements in NW London - that the LAS and GP surgery can manage very nicely without a whole lot of blokes in jackets and radios craving for attention....?

shalom said...

Shimi. Yes we do. The CST are a bunch of guys who do nothing except look busy and no interest apart from self aggrandizement. They have no interest in the frum community at all and were reportedly useless in the recent saga while Shomrim and the police liason / machers from Stamford hill did all the work.

11. Bail said...

Whilst wholeheartedly agreeing with your criticism of the bunglers of SH, I would point out that RPR has repeatedly begged CH to leave town for the sake of the Kehilla, and even two weeks ago when learning of his impending arrest, RPR tried again with no success.

CH's position is clear. He wants his day in Court, confident his legal team will discredit his accusers and he will walk free.

We, the believers in our NW Rabbonim, beg the victims to go to the Police; they have reiterated that full anonymity is assured and the Sapphire Unit will confirm this.

goldersgreener said...

shimi what an ungrateful little shit you are. even if they have done nothing as you suggest, they have volunteered their own time for free to try and help. i can recall at least 2 recent incidents when elderly people when missing and they set up search parties etc till the early hours in the morning to find them. they have been praised by the police - who you say do a remarkable job (they don't begrudge them praise!). i personally have never had to use them, but i don't begrudge them having a radio or being "cool". your comments reek of pure jealousy. shame on you!

Jos said...

To Shimi
Let me tell you in no uncertain terms,Shomrim are a great benefit to our community.

I know for a fact that the incidence of street crime would be significantly higher if not for our Shomrim volunteers.

You obviously have some lousy motivation for knocking them.

Betrayed former supporter said...

To the fellow who called me a self hating Jew making anti-Semitic statements:

In the non-frum world people resign all the time when embroiled in a scandal that taints the name of their organisation. Did R' Padwa do so after the Dispatches documentary shocked so many people? Did Chaim Halpern step down from his shul so as to save dragging the kehillo through the mud?

There is no such expression in the rabbinic lexicon as "his position became untenable" due to a scandal; they prefer to fight (not always cleanly) until the bitter end. This simply doesn't not happen in the outside world.

I have no idea whether Mr Ost has done anything wrong or not but I applaud this action nonetheless. He could have tried to use his position to garner support from Shomrim and its backers and blamed the allegations on a conspiracy, the internet, jealousy etc. This would have tainted Shomrim as an organisation and politicised the issue. Instead he has taken the highly unusual decision to do the honourable thing.

Abramson said...

Very nice letter Gavriel.
If a boy with your educational background can write like that it is a great credit to your teachers.
I personally thought that a solicitor drafted the letter for you,I suppose I could be wrong.
Having said that without any intention of denigration,I must add my appreciation for all the hard and at times dangerous work you have done whilst in Shomrim.
The Kehilla feel a certain comfort and security in having you chaps around and on call 24/7.

I myself and I'm sure I speak for the vast majority,look forwards to see you back on duty.

With gratitude for the past ,and heartiest best wishes that you shall have no more pain or trouble from the present difficult situation,
Yours sincerely,
Abramson

Puzzled said...

RCH wrote a brief but very clear letter of resignation,albeit not typed out on headed paper.
RCH wrote the letter long before there had been police involvement.

Why is Mr Ost's very nice letter being used as a means of running down RCH?

35-792 said...

'Shimi'
+1!

Leyzer said...

May I suggest an alternative title, with thanks to Jack Higgins:

'The Ost has flown'

Ganuv said...

Oh my! Somebody has got a chip on his shoulder!!

GoldbergsGreen said...

@shimi

Whether Shomrim volunteers enjoy their job too much or not is besides the point. (Personally, I think they do a great and useful job.)

This poor guy endured a terrible 3 days without his freedom, as did the others despite being entirely unconnected to the RCH. The police certainly didn't do a "remarkable job" last week and have a lot of questions to answer.

That he has to step down because his position requires absolute trust with the police just makes it a double tragedy for him and doesn't bolster any faith in Barnet police.

Danny Locks said...

In answer to puzzled:

CH only resigned to avert worse things happening, not because he wanted to do the honourable thing.

That's the difference

Boruch said...

I hear there are lots of politics going on with in Shomrim, what a stupid bunch of attention seekers.

Shalom said...

Hopefully in a weeks time when the police will hopefully drop the case Shomrim will ask Gavriel Ost to become CEO again.

The Red Baron said...

It's interesting to see the 'support' for one suspect, and yet the other gets pilloried.
If Ost has broken the law, his position in working with Police is untenable.
If convicted will he still be a hero to you?

Mod Squad said...

How can Shomrim be given all this attention and admiration at the expense of the CST?
As people have commented above, Shomrim do great work, but it is limited to search parties for missing 6 year olds and manic depressives or for sting operations to tie up cash machine frauds.

The Trust on the other hand send patrol people to walk the streets and stand outside shuls with the goal of keeping us safe from the people who can do serious damage if they wanted to.
Those who say they have no interest in the frum community must have their blinkers on when we clearly see "CST" in big letters on jackets walking around GG on shabbos every week.
(And they arent in nice warm heated cars like the shomrim bunch)

barnet is the uk burglary hotspot, said...

To correct the comment about barnet having the highest burglary levels in London,, Barnet borough has the highest burglary rate in the UK!!

Worst is that the frum areas of Golders and hendon have the highest burglary rate in Barnet. In short our kehilah has the highest burglary rates in the UK but Barnet police love us and protect us??

Of course we need Shomrim and not silly Chillul Shabbos Trust walking around unwanted on shabbos with phones sticking out their pockets

Barnet police, please protect us from a burglary epidemic which targets the Jewish community in your borough. I know you try your "best" but that is obviously not enough!!

Gavriel, we shall all miss you whilst you clear your name, wishing you all the best.

VoR said...

I don't see why either the CST or the shomrim need uniforms and gadgets. It creates the impression of a mafia to the police force; and of little boys with toys to the community. All they need is a mobile phone.

The CST are effectively a political lobbying force making effective use of the guise of a security guard.

They do give useful advice to shuls; but that shouldn't cost millions of pounds a year. Often their members are plain rude; I would like to know how many of the hundreds of people barred entry from shuls over the years were actually terrorists; and the idea that they could effectively deter an armed terrorist is risible.

The Shomrim are an effective community watch; but they have too often been let down by indiscipline.

I see a role for both organisations; but both should radically scale back their budget, ambitions, and public profile.

Anonymous said...

Busby babe
http://www.manchestereruv.org.uk/plans.aspx#status
Thank you for leaving your messages on the Manchester Eruv website.
You ask valid questions and whilst I am not qualified to give a detailed answers to them all, I do assure you that the Eruv has been built to conform lechumra to a majority of poiskim.

I will try and get one of the Rabbonim who are advising us to give you a detailed answer to each of your questions but this may take some time as they are currently busy building the Eruv.

Kind regards & again, thank you for your interest in the Eruv.

Gigi Mechlowitz (on behalf of the Eruv Committee)

Anonymous said...

Busby babe

This email was sent in response to my email regarding the Manchester Eruv.
I have also spoken to a Union dayan about it.
If you look on the google map you will see that the eruv includes swamps (which border the eruv on Kersal road)moors open spaces and parks. On the south Western tip it also includes the Manchester United football ground which borders the eruv in Lower Broughton Road. This kindly allows one to carry tickets to watch the game. I question all these places which cannot all be construed as being 'tashmish dirah'. See artscroll 24A note 5 (in the Hebrew edition). Since now the daf yomi is starting eruvin and the rabbonim, dayanim are all hesitant in answering, maybe some of your posters can. Like Hillel said ask the people. This is a halachic subject but affects a great many people. One must also thank the Manchester eruv committee who are doing this great mitsva on which you even make a brocho of making an eruv and stopping chillul shabbos.
Of interest the population of Manchester is half a million Salford a quarter and Prestwich less than 100,000. Manchester United Trafford Park ground can contain 70000 but is very far from the Jewish area. There is no Shopping centre in the Jewish area lke Brent Cross which would attract people outside the area.
Bury New Road has 30,000 cars travelling daily and many are the same drivers returning.
Therefore Manchester does not have the London problem of 600000 people.
There is no rov officially in Manchester against the eruv. I suppose you have many readers from Manchester who can perhaps contribute to this subject.

SH Calling said...

Of course we need Shomrim and not silly Chillul Shabbos Trust walking around unwanted on shabbos with phones sticking out their pockets

Is'nt there an Eruv in NW? ah I forgot the oilam trug undercover only.

me said...

A man of this calibre should never have been in a position that an arrest was made, irrespective if the allegations are true or false it shows that people think they are untouchable.

Take Your Own Advice said...

Mr Tickle, your long posting laid down a principle that anybody credibly accused of a serious offence must step down until he is cleared by a court or other tribunal. Yet you have been credibly accused of defamation in the high court and bizui talmidei chachominby some readers of this blog.

Therefore by your own principles you must resign from running this blog until a court and / or a Beis Din has cleared you of these offences.

Or is there one law for RCH and one law for you?

WE NEED SHOMRIM said...

@ Mr Mod Squad

Firstly no one is giving Shomrim attention and admiration at the expense of the CST. But since you seem to be a shomrim basher, I thought you might want to check out who and what CST really is.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1042391&SubsidiaryNumber=0

Under 'Activities' CST claim the following,

CST SEEKS TO PROTECT BRITAIN'S DIVERSE AND VIBRANT JEWISH COMMUNITY FROM THE EXTERNAL THREATS OF BIGOTRY, ANTISEMITISM AND TERRORISM. CST PROVIDES PHYSICAL SECURITY, TRAINING AND ADVICE FOR THE PROTECTION OF
BRITISH JEWS, ASSISTS VICTIMS OF ANTISEMITISM, MONITORS ANTISEMITIC ACTIVITIES AND INCIDENTS AND REPRESENTS BRITISH JEWRY TO POLICE, GOVERNMENT AND MEDIA ON ANTISEMITISM AND SECURITY.

Let's break this all down,
CST SEEKS TO PROTECT BRITAIN'S DIVERSE AND VIBRANT JEWISH COMMUNITY FROM THE EXTERNAL THREATS OF BIGOTRY, ANTISEMITISM AND TERRORISM. - Clearly CST does not do this. They only operate for the benefit of secular jews and not all especially not frum jews, for example there is no secular jewish community living in Gateshead. Although the jewish community there, are subject to the most horrific threats of bigotry and anti semitism in the UK.
It just so happens that orthodox jews live alongside secular jews in NW London and Manchester and therefore CST's presents is seen, have you ever seen CST walking around Clapton Common, on Stamford Hill or along Coatsworth Road on a Shabbos afternoon?

CST PROVIDES PHYSICAL SECURITY, TRAINING AND ADVICE FOR THE PROTECTION OF
BRITISH JEWS, - to whom, where and when?

ASSISTS VICTIMS OF ANTISEMITISM, MONITORS ANTISEMITIC ACTIVITIES AND INCIDENTS - wow they have a hotline which in 2011 according to the CST blog received 586 calls, I quote "A total of 586 incidents were reported to CST in 2011, a 9% fall from the 645 antisemitic incidents recorded in 2010"
Please see link
http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=3413

Just to clarify, the hotline (try it) goes to a pager, you leave a message and someone will eventually call you back, listens to your story how you have become a victim of anti semitism and then calls the police and reports it. Now only 586 people actually called CST from across the whole of the UK in 2011.

REPRESENTS BRITISH JEWRY TO POLICE, GOVERNMENT AND MEDIA ON ANTISEMITISM AND SECURITY. - who on earth appointed them to do that, when was the last time they had an open meeting to hear from the frum kehilla about concerns they should bring up to the Police, Government and Media on our behalf?

Now Mr Mod Squad click on the link below

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/FinancialHistory.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1042391&SubsidiaryNumber=0

now click on the word accounts on the top line (to the right of 22 Oct 2012) download the document and have a little read.

WE NEED SHOMRIM said...

CONTINUED:
What you will find on Page 17, CST officially employ 64 staff and paid in 2011 over 2 Million Pounds in wages.

Two of CST employees are on £150,000.00 to £160,000.00 salaries!

Page 18 shows they spent over £100,000.00 on vehicles in 2011 (oops I thought they were walking up and down Golders Green Road)

The rest of the document will hopefully give you a bigger picture but I won't go through each page. CST don't care two hoots about you and me and the rest of the kehilla, they are a business and are clearly in it for the money, all 8 Million pounds of it annually!

If CST really protected all jews they would have the decency to 'protect' the frum kehilla and walk up and down GG Road, every morning, afternoon and evening whilst jews run to and from shul, oh I forgot secular jews only go to shul on shabbos morning! Have you ever seen CST personnel standing 'protecting' a shul during davening times on a weekday?

How can an organisation that calls itself a jewish charity justify an 8 million pound budget to;
a) man a hotline and pass on 500 - 600 calls a year to the police
b) get volunteers to walk up and down GGR on shabbos afternoon for an hour

I am sure you would like to see the I am sure you would like to see the Shomrim NW accounts, well here you go, I found the link for you to have a butchers hook.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1137410&SubsidiaryNumber=0

Now to answer your question I support Shomrim because their NW branch alone receives and responds to over 300+ calls every single month from people in Barnet alone! (I understand The Shomrim in Stamford Hill receive a similar amount of calls to their hotline from the people in SH.)

Someone will actually pick up the phone when you call their hotline, they have an actual response team who will deal with an incident immediately and in most cases 2 - 3 members will attend an address within two min of the call, they operate nightly patrols throughout the frum area protecting our community from crime without having to make a big fuss and by spending minimal amount of communal funds. They don't go around claiming to represent people they have nothing to do with, their committee, members, phone operators and controllers are all UNPAID volunteers who actually have one goal, to assist the kehilla and protect the kehilla from crime.

Mr Mod Squad please do Shomrim a favour and don't call them when your two year old kid gets locked in a bathroom, if you are being burgled or mugged, or if a suspicious vehicle is parked outside your home address, if your vulnerable grandmother with dementia goes missing, just call your wonderful CST see if they can help, maybe they will send someone to walk past the next shabbos afternoon.

Alternatively you call the Police, but be advised if you have become a victim of burglary you could wait up to three days for police to respond.

See link for more info

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035518/Police-given-THREE-HOURS-respond-emergencies-new-Home-Office-guidelines.html

Mr Mod Squad, to end off, CST are the ones in their 'very nice and warm' heated £100,000 cars whilst Shomrim members earn an honest living and give up hours of their work and family time at the drop of hat to voluntarily protect our community 24hrs a day and Shomrim deserve every bit of recognition they get!

Mod Squad said...

@barnet is the UK burglary hotspot

"Worst is that the frum areas of Golders and hendon have the highest burglary rate in Barnet. In short our kehilah has the highest burglary rates in the UK but Barnet police love us and protect us??"

Did you ever think that this is corrolated to the fact that the frum areas of golders green and hendon also have the highest per capita ownership of silver candlesticks, bechers, menorahs, tzedaka boxes, mayaim acharonim wassers and that our shuls have the highest ownership rate of silver yadei Torah, keserei Torah, breastplates and rimonim?

Shomrim would do well to stop sting operations on cash machines and rather focus on the lucrative silver gangs operating on our streets.

golders greener said...

mod squad.

your comments would be hilarious; unfortunately you are serious when making them!

shomrim "only" find missing children and manic depressives or sting operations to prevent us being robbed - yeah what a complete waste of time compared to cst who "send patrols to protect us with cst in big letters" i.e. do absolutely nothing except walk around on shabbos with walkie talkies advertising how wonderful the cst is!

Anonymous said...

Barnet...hotspot
What a load of tosh.
http://www.crimerates.co.uk/compare/4861/london_borough_of_barnet-greater_london-uk/156/hackney-london_borough_of_hackney-london-uk/

NotGabyLock said...

Don't look to the police for salvation. Not content with closing down 2 out of 3 police stations the government has now cut police pay to such an absurd level as will only attract recruits with the lowest IQ or invite corruption in the existing ranks. To add to this lunacy, they've stopped building new prisons.
And all this on the brink of an invasion by tens of thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians whose national pastime is theft and pickpocketing.
Such Chelm-economics are intended to cover a deficit caused by unemployment, housing and disabiity benefits being rampantly and irresponsibly shelled out to the last wave of EU migrants.
The only answer is private security - but, alas, free services like Shomrim however well intentioned, will not be enough to meet this massive crime-wave. We will all have to pay for private firms.

The Red Baron said...




28 February 2013 23:25

barnet is the uk burglary hotspot, said...


Please can you give us the provenance of these 'facts'??

Whilst burgulary may seem high in Barnet, dear old Golders Green NW11 doesn't even hit the top 20!
In fact Stoke Newington has that Honour!

The first mention for 'Barnet' comes in ranked at position 20 - and unfortunately for you it relates to NW7 - not NW11.

So...might I suggest that you take the merest moment to google the actual facts before coming on here and making a total and utter tool of yourself.

Further, your unfettered support of a suspect currently on police bail is embarassing.

May I suggest a little wisdom in allowing the police to conclude their investigations, and either clear or charge the individuals. Once the facts are in the public arena - which they will be if any charge is laid, you may feel to make comment.
The police have no axe to grind one way or the other - unlike yourself.
Gary will face due process - as should we all.





http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2095541/Top-20-burglary-hotspots-Home-insurance-data-reveals-postcodes-highest-rate-claims.html

Joe Blogs said...

barnet is the uk burglary hotspot:

Why do you think the "frum areas of Golders and hendon" have the highest burgley rate in Barnet? Surely you don't think it is just anti-semitism! The community is targeted because we are so ostentatious (ie the opposite of modest) any junkie knows where to fund his next fix.

Modesty ain't just about a dress code you know. Most of us are only modest in this most limited way without understanding its wider meaning. This is why we need extra security!! Because basically we are so immodest.

Anonymous said...

Self loathing people

When will you people start appreciating what Gavriel has done to your community ?

You speak like you know everything that goes on

Gavriel has given away so much to this community and this is how you show your appreciation ????

He will be dearly missed and we hope his name gets cleared quickly so he can take back his position with his head held high

NotGabyLock said...

Anyway ... who set this blog off on this CST/Shomrim tangent? Presumably one of Porky's aliases.

The Red Baron said...

"When will you people start appreciating what Gavriel has done to your community ?"

Appreciate sure....but you have to question the intelligence of someone in such a community position who allows himself to become involved, at such a level to potentially compromise both himself and the organisation he represents.

Surely poor judgement at the very best ?

Rudyard Kipling said...

@Take your own advice

Since you regard the views of the readers of this blog as pertinent, and impacting IYTU's blogging role, can I express my view that I consider your senseless comment to be singularly dim-witted, and obnoxiously illogical, in the hope that you will act upon your own advice and thereby refrain from sullying the other more intelligent comments with further instances of your breath-taking idiocy.

And now for a little zemer that you would do well to sing at your shabbos table:

I had six honest serving men.
They taught me all I knew:
Their names were
Where and What and When,
And Why and How and Who.

barnet is the uk burglary hotspot said...

@@ Red Baron,

Barnet has the highest residential burglary rates in the UK. And over the last 3 years Childs Hill Ward and Golders Green Ward were the highest in Barnet. These wards amount to the highest concentrate of Frum Jews in any ward in Barnet.

I stand by my crime stats obtained from the home office and the met. You on the other hand obtained your stats from google and a recent news article on insurance claims.

I am not sure why you are defending a borough policing command unit which clearly needs to get a grip on a very serious crime which clearly is targeting a specific ethnic minority community ie frum Jews.

The police need to significantly up their game and work with all partners including shomrim.

Barnet Police do not have enough officers to do their job. We need more police officers and better working relationships with voluntary community partners such as shomrim.

I wish you luck Mr Reb Baron

GG is actually the UK domestic burglary hot-spot said...

http://www.hmic.gov.uk/crime-and-policing-comparator/?force=metropolitan&crime=all-crime

just one link to support what barnet is the uk burglary hotspot, said..

The mets website has detailed statistics which support the fact that the frum areas of GG are the UK domestic burglary hotspot

Adloyada said...

I have many criticisms of the unaccountability and secretiveness of CST, their failure to advertise their recruitment policies and show their track record, their selective approach to security and their failure to have genuinely independent external evaluation of their work other than the money they get from the Dept of Ed for school security. However, it's not an either-or. I do think CST is doing exceptionally helpful work on terrorist monitoring which helps protect the entire Jewish community.

This is an indicator from their recent report:

In 2012, CST had 204 cases of potential hostile information collection reported to us. This included 60 cases of suspicious filming or photographing of Jewish locations and 38 cases of suspicious people trying to enter Jewish premises.

which needs to be put in this context:

http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4130


CST has long urged the UK Jewish community to be alert to potential terrorist surveillance and to report suspicions to CST or Police. The ongoing trial in Cyprus, of an alleged Hizbollah operative, again confirms the importance of this message. The Washington Post reports:

“I was just collecting information about the Jews,” he told police, according to a sworn deposition. “This is what my organization is doing, everywhere in the world.”

It further explains of the suspect’s arrest:
…the dark-haired 24-year-old attracted suspicion because of his apparent fascination with the habits of Jewish visitors to the sun-drenched island.
For more than a week last summer, he crisscrossed the island, asking questions and staking out hotels and businesses catering to Jewish customers. He scoured the island for restaurants that served kosher meals.
“I was supposed to spot Israeli restaurants where Jews eat kosher,” he would explain later to investigators. “I was looking it up on the Internet and couldn’t find anything.”



Both organisations are potentially immensely helpful to the community. There are however huge opportunities for personal/political/religious agendas to set targets which the community has not been consulted about.

I also very much hope anyone associated with Shomrim proves to be wholly innocent of any criminal charges or any doings which could lose them their charitable status or lead to their Trustees or employees being disbarred. But the potential is there for any such organisation to become a vigilante organisation also used to hound or pursue religious or factional pressurising and "policing" which have no business in the UK context.

It's good to see commenters making such helpful use of the info available via the Charity Commission on the operation of these organizations.

amie said...

VoR said “Often their members are plain rude; I would like to know how many of the hundreds of people barred entry from shuls over the years were actually terrorists; and the idea that they could effectively deter an armed terrorist is risible”.

I can confirm this from my own shocking experience. On Kol Nidrei 2 years ago, my 2 sons in their twenties were barred from entry from our United shul, being told they “did not tick the right boxes” mainly it seems they were not as smartly dressed as the other mispallelim. My younger son has attended that shul every shabbes since we moved here when he was 5 years old. He offered to recite his barmitzvah portion but was told “any terrorist could learn it.” When the older son gave them a drosha on the meaning of the Kol nidrei prayer he was told “I don't like your attitude”. My sons asked that my husband who had arrived earlier be called out to identify them, they refused to call him. Eventually one son recognised a woman we know who was able to identify him to the guard's satisfaction (having missed the first vital hour of the service) but only after their refusal to leave had most of the CST contingent clustered around them. My son, who has written the chapter on community contribution to civil security for the official textbook on Homeland Security used by the US government, tried to point out that this was very poor practice and a terrorist could sneak in while they were all gathered around arguing with what could be a diversion while terrorists sneaked in unhindered, but this just enraged the CST more.
I went to try and sort out what I thought was some unfortunate misunderstanding the next morning after shacharit. The head of shul CST to my shock just screamed at me in front of young members of CST and alleged my sons had been obstructive and when I attempted to ask in what way, so I could speak to my sons about it, he refused to tell me, saying I was as bad as my sons and was not prepared to talk to me. When I said what had happened was a chillul hashem, he screamed “I don't know what that means and I don't care!” The young CST boy echoed smirking- I also don't know what chillul hashem means.

I was too upset to daven further and went home crying. When I came to meet my husband and son after musaf, they took one look at my face and went to seek out this CST boss. He screamed at them in front of many people and then marched my son off to the shul office. When my son returned, he told us the man had operated the CCTV to prove to my son that the other son had tried to force his way into the shul. The CCTV did not reveal any such thing, but I was horrified at this further desecration on Yom Kippur.

Worse was to follow. My elder son says he does not regard the shul as safe to take his baby any more with such a volatile man in charge. I tried to speak to the vice chair of the committee to ask the Rov to mediate, but she came back to say the Rov did not want to speak to me, only to my son to sort it out “man to man”. My son said it was the lack of respect of the CST to me that hurt him more than they way they were treated and the refusal to let me come with to tell what happened to me aggravates this, so he didn't go to see the Rov.

The response of the vice chair is revealing- she told me this man raises a lot of money for the shul. And that is what it is all about. You will recognise the pattern- money talks and silences others. When I tried to complain to CST head office I was eventually told an investigation had been made, which consisted of asking the shul, and were given a good account of that man by the shul, so the investigation was closed. We were not asked for our version. Now the vice chair avoids my eye and my sons and I feel uncomfortable and humiliated at shul. My husband wanted to take the matter to the Beth Din, but we left it in the end.

STUNNED! said...

Wow.

Do you resent your butcher for not selling fish?

"please do Shomrim a favour and don't call them when your two year old kid gets locked in a bathroom"

"CST PROVIDES PHYSICAL SECURITY, TRAINING AND ADVICE FOR THE PROTECTION OF BRITISH JEWS" - they're not there to pull kids out of bathrooms, just as Shomrim aren't there to be called to women in labour, or to people with heart attacks chas vshalom - that's what Hatzola are for - get my drift?

"CST PROVIDES PHYSICAL SECURITY, TRAINING AND ADVICE FOR THE PROTECTION OF
BRITISH JEWS, - to whom, where and when?"

1) Shul security training - have any of the charedi shuls ever asked them for training and been refused?
2) School security training for parents who volunteer for security duty - (I did this and also learnt a lot about personal safety, tips I have passed on to others so they too have benefitted)
3) Streetwise - teaching children how to defend themselves, and krav maga courses - all free
4) Event security - you have no idea how many communal events benefit from this!
5) Hotline - which is publicised - they can hardly be blamed if people choose not to use it more!
6) And plenty more that I dont' know about....

"Shomrim......their committee, members, phone operators and controllers are all UNPAID volunteers who actually have one goal, to assist the kehilla and protect the kehilla from crime."

Yes, there may be highly-paid staff at the top of CST but they are needed, and most members ARE unpaid volunteers - plus I know FOR A FACT that even paid staff volunteer out-of-hours, UNPAID, because they really believe in what they're doing!


"when was the last time they had an open meeting to hear from the frum kehilla about concerns they should bring up to the Police, Government and Media on our behalf?"

When did you ask for one and get a refusal?

Why can't you appreciate how lucky we are in Britain to have the CST? Their visible presence acts as a deterrent as well as protection and so many have benefitted from their safety and security training, on a personal and communal level, and felt more secure as a result, especially at large events. It' so easy to criticise isnt it:(





The Red Barron (shooting down fools since 1914) said...

@ the idiot who continues to dig....


The link you provide is the Mer Majesty's Inspectorate of Crime -it says nothing whatsover about Barnet. It is a comparison of Police Forces - not individual boroughs or postcodes.
Further...the 'Home Office' statistics you claim to stand on are actually compiles by the ONS not the Home Office.
(BTW - the Met only covers London and so cannot provide 'National' statistics either.
You are wrong and wrong again...but instead of having the courage to admit it, you try throwing infantle red-herrings such as this useless page that does not in any tiny way support your booba-maisas.
Please don;t ask the police to get a grip on crime, when you have an agenda which involves not being able to get to grips with simple truth.
Provide attribution for your crap, or carry on...this is ridiculously easy. No wonder certain communal leaders can 'do no wrong' when they have simple-minded fools who can't prove provenance of their own claims.

Fan of CST said...

golders greener said..

How foolish of you...CST don't walk around with walkie-talkies on shabbos. Fact.

Hendon Adas, on the other hand, do hand over walkie-talkies to their members on security rotation on shabbos. Are appropriate safety precautions muttar only to the frummer, and not to other segments of the community?

Part of the function of CST is to act as a deterrent to people who do things like set off bombs in Jewish schools and shuls. A jacket, a patrol and sound security advise from them to our mosdos all help to keep us safe.
CST works hard to liaise with and to provide security for the "frum" community. They have frum teams to work with the frum, and shomer shabbos patrollers on shabbos generously giving of their time and energy.
In return they are repeatedly slated by the frumer, and even get abuse hurled at them whilst patrolling. As ever, it is left largely to the "non-frum" to protect the ignorant, as shirking responsibility appears to be a frum sanctioned core belief. Israel, the IDF and I'll include CST here are entities staunchly opposed by the frumer, yet all are happy to bask in the priviliges accorded by their efforts and presence.

Get on the right side of history, people.

Eizeh hu chocham?

Anonymous said...

If barnet has such a high crime rate, why are you all so excited about the shomrim? They clearly aren't very useful in any practical sense...

VoR said...

CST personnel at community locations are often rude, aggressive and intemperate. I repeat; how many of the hundreds of people sent packing from shul have been a threat to anyone?

Mrs VoR had a camera thrust aggressively in her face when she turned up to use the Raleigh Close Keilim Mikva at the time the CST goons were doing their practice. She felt threatened, and shaken by the experience.

The annual ritual of pretending there to have been a spike in anti semitic crime figures is now so tired that this year even the CST gave up on it.

If the not so frum CSTers are so conscious of a divide between them and the people they are supposed to be protecting, isn't a bit of bridge building and a widening of recruitment appropriate?

What evidence is there that these ostentatious patrols have achieved anything at all? I, for one, don't feel protected at all by the mid-life crisis men marching around with umbrellas.

In these times of financial hardship, the CST should be having a good hard look at itself and asking these kinds of questions.

At least Shomrim can give concrete examples of when their intervention has delivered public good.

amie said...

Fan of CST: I also was a great fan of CST, even worked with those high up in head office on a confidential issue combating antisemitism, until what happened to my family. What do you think of what happened to me, where the man in charge was not shomer anything, let alone shomer shabbat.

BlackHatOrangeBeard said...

I'm not sure why you're all so worked up.

It's quite simple.


CST are good at security e.g. guards at events, but are essentially a secular organisation which need to be more sensitivity towards the religious.

Shomrim are good at being the underresourced police's eyes and ears for crime and missing persons reports and suchlike and are chareidi in nature.

For kids locked in bathrooms you need Chaveirim, not Shomrim though your next door neighbour may be as helpful.

CST do need to justify whether they are spending their large budget proportionally and fairly throughout the various kehillos. Hopefully Shomrim will get funding too and then they too can show us all how to open and transparent within reason.

And this silly frummer-bashing has long since got old. I'm one of those awful frummers and I make sure to greet each and every CST volunteer and express my appreciation. (I'm such a fanatic, I won't carry in the eruv. That's one step away from stoning cars on shabbos!). Ido the same for Shomrim. If the CST needs to sharpen up its act, it's those (paid) individuals on top that are accountable, the volunteers need our thanks.

bob said...

@Stunned

Don't you see the reason the frum community in NW London, Stamford Hill and gateshead don't engage with CST is because they don't agree with CST's ethics.

Of the hundreds of frum Rabbi's across the UK, CST do not have a single frum Rabbi who endorses their work.

The frum community do not want their training, they do not want to call the CST Hotline, they don't want CST walking up and down Golders Green Road, They don't want not frum people like Richard Benson and Carol Laiser claiming that CST represents British Jewry. Richard and Carol have no idea what our community want or need. As the saying goes we don't want your sing and we don't want your honey.

CST should stop proclaiming they represent all British Jewry when they most certainly have nothing to do with Orthodox British Jewry.

See article below,
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/48036/our-unrepresentative-security

moshe chaim said...

Our unrepresentative security
By Geoffrey Alderman, April 18, 2011 article in The JC.

In the JC of March 11, there was an article by Dr Gilbert Kahn, who teaches political science at Kean University, in the United States. Professor Kahn had attended the annual fund-raising dinner of the Community Security Trust, and the purpose of his column was to lament the fact that British Jews felt obliged to pay - via the CST - for the physical protection that the British state should surely provide out of general taxation.
I want to ask some rather different questions.
What right does a completely private body that happens to call itself the CST have to involve itself in the safety and well-being of British Jews?
What right does it have to represent itself as being a representative body? On its website, the CST boasts that it "represents the Jewish community on a wide range of Police, governmental and policy-making bodies dealing with security and antisemitism."
What right does it have to make such a claim? The website further explains that "the Police and government praise CST as a model of how a minority community should protect itself."
That may be so but I want to ask whether we - you and I - should not have a quiet word in the ear of government and point out that the CST represents no one but itself and is mandated to espouse the views of none other than its own trustees.
Since what I am going to say is likely to raise more than a heckle here and a heckle there, I want to make it clear that I personally believe that the CST probably does valuable work in two related fields: providing security and security advice; and collecting and publishing security-related data.
I am aware that it operates in a third and inevitably murky dimension, namely that of a watching brief with regard to extremist organisations, possibly including the infiltration of such bodies.
Last year, in a volume of essays I edited by young historians young historians of British Jewry (New Directions in Anglo-Jewish History) I was delighted to include a chapter written by Daniel Tilles on the anti-fascist campaign of the Board of Deputies, between 1936 and 1940.
Mr Tilles had been permitted access to hitherto closed files that revealed how the Board had operated a crude network of informers at that time.
The Board's defence director, Mike Whine, was candid enough to confess to me that the Board had decided to open these historic files partly to send a very contemporary message: that British Jewry was not averse to such intelligence-gathering, and that groups currently touting an anti-Jewish agenda would do well to understand this fact.
Mr Whine, as well as being the current defence director of the Deputies is also an employee of the CST, in charge of government and international affairs. The CST also elects two deputies of its own. I see nothing problematic in these arrangements, but we must fully understand the corollary, namely that the CST itself has no "representative" basis whatsoever.
The CST grew out of the Community Security Organisation, which became independent of the Deputies in the 1980s.

moishe chaim said...

........continued
It enjoys charitable status, so you can discover a certain amount of information about its structure and financing via the website of the Charity Commission.
In 2009 (the latest year for which accounts are available), it attracted more than £5 million in donations and boasted reserves of £3 million. It had 64 employees, one of whom received an annual emolument of between £150,000 and £160,000. Its total 2009 wage bill exceeded £2 million.
These are not small amounts; they contrast starkly with the services provided to the CST practically for nothing by the scores of volunteers who, under the badge of the CST, provide security for communal events up and down the land.
Who makes policy at the CST? The short answer is: its trustees, who appoint themselves. Under a dispensation granted by the Charity Commission, the names of the trustees are hidden from public view.
According to the Commission's website there is only one trustee - Support Trustee Limited. But if you go to the Companies House website you can, for a small fee, download the names and contact addresses (and indeed dates of birth) of the directors of STL.
Perhaps these individuals could explain to us how, given the constitution and structure of the CST, it can honestly claim to "represent" the Anglo-Jewish community in any meaningful sense.

Balance said...

Following the thefts of Sifrei Torah silver from a few Shuls, 2 years ago, CST surveyed advised and provided two installers to quote and then paid 50% for our Shul (Shtiebel) alarm and CCTV.

In view of some of the comments above please consider the unfortunate and embarrassing fact that we & the CST became aware that the crimes were arranged and facilitated by a frummer.

Barren said...

@Red Baron said...

"Further, your unfettered support of a suspect currently on police bail is embarassing."

No, what's embarrassing is your presumption that he is in someway associated. You clearly know nothing of the GG kehillah if you think GO has anything to do with this scandal. He simply is not involved and it's uterly shameful that you don't presume absolute innocence especially when he's taken such a brave step.

"May I suggest a little wisdom in allowing the police to conclude their investigations, and either clear or charge the individuals. Once the facts are in the public arena - which they will be if any charge is laid, you may feel to make comment."

and then you say

"but you have to question the intelligence of someone in such a community position who allows himself to become involved, at such a level to potentially compromise both himself and the organisation he represents."

So we have it. Unbridled, unmitigated awful hypocrisy at its best.

On one hand you want us to refrain from commenting while the Police finish their investigation but you are fully prepared to pre-judge him and assume he as "allowed himself to become involved". This vomit-inducing disgusting conclusion is made without a trace on guile on your behalf. Disgusting.

Your implied presumption of "there's no smoke without fire" is exactly the reason why we're very hesitant to report suspicions to the police. They often go in heavy-handed, the names will be known within hours, and entirely innocent people may have their names permanently besmirched by people like you who assume the police can't possibly make huge errors.

Anyone that knows him knows he is just about the most unlikely person do "involve himself" in this sordid scandal to any degree. I only know Gary, but by extension the others arrested on perversion of justice charges are presumably uninvolved too.

"Surely poor judgement at the very best ?"

We won't take lessons of good judgement from someone who thinks using the name of a German fighter pilot is sensible idea.

The Red Baron said...

@ the sock puppet.

"No, what's embarrassing is your presumption that he is in someway associated. You clearly know nothing of the GG kehillah if you think GO has anything to do with this scandal. He simply is not involved and it's uterly shameful that you don't presume absolute innocence especially when he's taken such a brave step"

It's not me that presumes he's implicated. I imagine the police had reasonable suspicion to arrest him. The step he's taken is the correct thing to do in either situation, so what is your point? Because he stepped down he must be innocent? Please try to use some clear thinking.

"So we have it. Unbridled, unmitigated awful hypocrisy at its best.

On one hand you want us to refrain from commenting while the Police finish their investigation but you are fully prepared to pre-judge him and assume he as "allowed himself to become involved". This vomit-inducing disgusting conclusion is made without a trace on guile on your behalf. Disgusting."

The comment is another of your straw-man fantasies. Read what I read...not what you want to see. I'd explain...but I'm not into educating imbeciles. The fact that he is in the centre of this wheter innocent or not is a serious misjudgement. If you feel that is some way inappropriate, I'll just leave you to vomit.
Fools like you who don;t go to Police with suspicions effectively enable criminals to keep on going.
If anyone is disgusting, it is you for allowing these people to continue.
It is not your job or mine to judge - we simplt report and let the police do their jobs.
Alternatively we can do what you profess, and the situation within the Kehilla be damned.
As for the nom de plume.....it's from the FIRST world war...not the Nazis. My Zeida was drafted and fought for Germany in that war. The regime was in no way anti-Jewish...but then you knew that. Your arguments are so weak that you needed a distraction . FAIL!!
IT'S ALSO NOTICEABLE HOW YOU'VE COMPLETELY 'FORGOTTEN' TO PROVIDE ATTRIBUTION FOR YOUR PREVIOUS REMARKS!!!!

I'll take that as a complete concession and withdrawal.
Kisha Kozer, you idiot.

pencil sharpener said...

The problem with CST is, as soon as you say something bad about them the pull out that big "anti semitic card"

CST stop claiming everything and anything is anti semitic!

David Mendez said...

@Stunned

""when was the last time CST had an open meeting to hear from the frum kehilla about concerns they should bring up to the Police, Government and Media on our behalf?"

When did you ask for one and get a refusal?"

Don't you get it the frum kehilla don't want to have anthing to do with CST and therefore they have never asked for one. CST needs to answer why they have never even offered a meeting if they claim to represent all British Jews.

Almost Tuesday said...

To:

me said...
A man of this calibre should never have been in a position that an arrest was made, irrespective if the allegations are true or false it shows that people think they are untouchable.

1 March 2013 11:42

Mr Ost is very untouchable. In fact, so untouchable that the Police did not handcuff him for fear of his touch.

Anyway, who are you to talk about the calibre of person Mr Ost is? have you ever even thought about giving up 1000's of hours of your own private time without pay to help the kehilla like he has?

The comment you make about being arrested is a childish one, as a person cannot control what allegations are made against them, and people in Mr Ost's position are more likely to be subject to the revenge of hundreds of suspects Shomrim has successfully apprehended.

SH educated said...

The Red Baron (von Richthofen) was a FIRST world war fghter pilot. Many jews fought on the German side in WW1.

And, of course, there is such a thing as smoke without fire. Hundreds of completely false libels have been made against yidden over the centuries (e.g. protocols and matzos etc.)

golders greener said...

i personally don't think that the cst are a waste of time, obviously they do some good.

what i can't take is the over hyping of what they actually do and who they claim they stand for, and their and their supporters constant denigrating of shomrim.

ultimately both organizations ought to have more respect for each other and represent their respective kehillos.

The Red Baron said...

"Anyway, who are you to talk about the calibre of person Mr Ost is? have you ever even thought about giving up 1000's of hours of your own private time without pay to help the kehilla like he has?"


I'm someone who has not only given up thousands of hours of my own time, but I've been publicly recognised for having done so.

"Police did not handcuff him for fear of his touch"

Police would only handcuff if they feared he was a danger to either themselves or himself. The only other reason would be if they feared he would run. As none of those applied there was no reasonable need to apply cuffs.

"Anyway, who are you to talk about the calibre of person Mr Ost is?"

I haven't made any remark about his character, just that he has shown misjudgement by allowing himself to be caught up in this mess. He is a public figure and as such needs to be most circumspect.
How you can possibly find issue with that is beyond me.It is basic common sense really. But as you seem to have an agenda here, I'll leave you to your delusion.
Why keep changing your posting name? Same old sock-puppetry with the same evasions about your 'facts'.

Barren said...

@WW1 German Fighter Pilot

"The fact that he is in the centre of this whether innocent or not is a serious misjudgement.

So it's "misjudgement" to get arrested even if uninvolved? It's the same as saying a person injured in a car accident must always be in some way at fault or culpable. Readers of this blog, please educate Red Baron, I'm tired.

"I imagine the police had reasonable suspicion to arrest him."

Indeed, your entire argument relies of your fetid imagination of what he must have got himself "involved" in, seeing as he was arrested.

"so what is your point? Because he stepped down he must be innocent? Please try to use some clear thinking."

No, please read again so save me repeating. He's stepped down despite stating he's innocent.

He's presumably innocent and apparently uninvolved just because he is. Should I format "un involved" for emphasis again, so you don't miss it the second time?

You really don't comprehend how wrong your attitude is, do you? To you anyone that's arrested must be guilty of being "involved" in something.

You need urgent lessons in notion presumption of innocence. It doesn't mean "I can't assume he's definitely guilty, but I will assume he's got himself into this mess". I won't even bother with the halachah aspect, as your attitude is deplorable in secular moral terms alone.

As you have stated, you clearly couldn't care less, or fail to understand, and how sickening your cowardly anonymous attacks are against someone prepared to sign his name in public statement.

In your all-caps request for attribution, you are addressing the wrong man. So certain are you that there cannot possibly be more than one person disagreeing with you, that you assume I am a sockpuppet for Mr GG Burglary Hotspot or whatever he may call himself today. There will always be sockpuppets but that doesn't make me one of them (or make you right).

By the way, you don't understand what a "straw man argument" is.

"you who don;t go to Police with suspicions effectively enable criminals to keep on going."

True. So change your attitude, and we can no longer hesitate (to accurately quote myself) to report suspicions to police, knowing that your type won't assume culpability and innocents will never suffer from your awful character assassinations. To this end, how about you start with an apology here to GO?

I'm sure your zeide himself was never quite so proud to be conscripted into the WW1 for the Germans. Sorry, I forgot, the Great War didn't target Jews so the 37 million deaths and untold horror aren't important. Keep flying, Baron!

I'm unlikely to comment further as some of the views really do make me feel sick (though the RB can contact me at chickenpulka@gmail.com), so I would ask those that still believe fully in the principles of "innocent until proven guilty" and choshed bikesherim to counter this virulent stream of mud-throwing, if Red Baron replies.

yours,
"imbecile"

The Red Baron said...

Are you Rafa Benitez???

FACT!!!

The Red Baron said...

Dear Imbecile/Barren
I've noted your comments, and there's nothing there that a decent education wouldn't cure.

I'd take the time to read your drivel further. but the circular nonsense you spout is clearly the product of a disorganised mind.

I'll leave you to feel sick...although I suspect it is more to do with being found out to be a liar with an agenda (see your 'crime centre of the universe' bullshit.
It's almost as musing as your ignorance as to who the Red Baron actually was.
Perhaps a lttle less gemorah and a little more rounded education may have helped prevent your embarassment, but hey..keep digging.
I'll take your lack of response as a concession.
Goodnight