Sunday, 6 March 2011

Prepare to meet thy machers

image[6] - Copy

If you live in Golders Green where you are wont to honour the ethos of the Union in its breach you will have ‘another opportunity’ to meet your masters. If however you are unfortunate enough to live in Stamford Hill please stay there and do not even dream of gatecrashing as by the size of your beard and length of your jacket shall ye be known and many have of late been expelled. Unless you are one of the panellists in which case it appears you are not welcome unless you are from Stamford Hill as it is only we who know what's right and wrong for you. Your role in Yiddishkeit is to turn up, pay up and shut up while we ‘are you moitse’ in the more pesky areas. Perhaps shutting up should be qualified since questions may be put a couple of light years ahead of the meeting or 'via the chairman' so as to ensure what not to address.

It is not for this blog which generally limits itself to the holy square mile to comment on a meeting to which we weren’t invited even first time round. It is your and not our day of reckoning that is nigh and don’t look to us to bail you out. Besides, we as a rule are less supine and reverential than you genteel folk as we choose to be observant in practice and not by proxy via our hallowed rabbinical members of the Halpern Group of Companies. 'Hechover' Joe might thus find himself answering some Enfield foxes rather than via the chairman.

Nonetheless, it is we who have made our Dear Leaders available to you for an evening to milk you dry, ban the rivals, make you lay the golden egg and finally bury you with gemutlichkeit, and it is only right that we should let you benefit from our experience in handling them. Moreover, since 'the Public' means only the male folk, and since the date for submission of questions passed almost simultaneously with the appearance of the notice - they are sharp, you must give them that - and since email is not the medium of communication for loyal member who obey their rabbis, and since some may find 'via the chairman' rather Putinesque, we will as a public service make our comments section available for you to ventilate your concerns.

Below are some examples to get you going:

Why if we GGers are so important to your organisation is the entire panel from Stamford Hill? Ever heard of No taxation without representation or, to you Joe, is that not a Toiredike value?

Will you be banning Ecksteins meat if they defect to Schneebalg?

Can Joe please clarify who owns Enfield and what its vast turnover (chevre put you in, foxes take you out) is funnelled into?

Do feel free to add questions of your own but please, as Basil Fawlty would no doubt advise, don't mention the eiruv.

(Thanks to sender of notice)

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

This does not seem like a union meeting. The members of the panel are the kedassia representatives. Its most likely why they dont have many or any restaurants in GG. The people there have no kedassia loyalty buying Westheim's meat and using questionable caterers and restaurants.
The union have never heard of closing the gate after the horse has bolted which is what they're doing. One would have expected R Elchonon himself, if anyone to asser all these hechsher newcomers, it can only be him. He has tried but without any result. And why dont they have Roberts or Greenberg on the panel? Looks like they have given up long ago. I gather it will be very heated. Out belated mayor with all his experience will for once be lost for words.

J. said...

I'm rubbing my hands with anticipation...

Anonymous said...

Why do schools in stamford hill get money from kedassia and GG don't?

J. said...

And a great time was had by all...
I was surprised at the openness of the discussion. Questions were taken from the floor. The discussion was chaired excellently (and fearlessly) my MV. A great deal of discontent was expressed by the GG'ers, and although the Kedassia panelists did their best, they occassionally had to resort to 'because we say so'. The most ridiculous thing was when it came out that they were prepared to rely on goyim to take challa in Grodzinski, but they aren't allowed to sell the 'other milk' chas veshalom in case a goy uses that milk in a coffee.
Reb Chaim claimed that al pi halocho, anyone who uses the beis olam of a kehilla is mechuyav to the decisions of that kehilla's beis din (he admitted that one could legitimately argue halachically against some nekudos on the Union's position on the Eruv, but claimed that that was besides the point). However, after Reb Chaim left, the question was raised as to how the Union tolerates communities which clearly and officially do not abide by the Union's takonos (such as Ohr Chdosh which officially endorses the Eruv, but the Union is still happy to allow them to use the Beis Oilom). I didn't hear a good answer.
In general, people were upset with meat prices, and with the perceived lack of effort by Kedassia to try other options to make meat cheaper (such as shechita in Poland which they were 'investigating'). There was also great unrest about the lack of morei horo'oh in GG as compared to SH, and questions were raised as to why kedassia needs to employ so many rabbonim (apparently due to a proliferation of Niddo shaalos). It looks like the unrest has not yet been quelled..

Anonymous said...

R Chaim has got it wrong (sorry). The halacha is that if I call someone to beis din about a monetary matter, then he cant say he will go to another beis din. One asks him where are you going to be buried and he has to go that beis din. Otherwise he will always be able to get out of it. Today when one goes to Israel which is a new thing for burial one wonders what happens. But this didnt originally exist. To push this matter further and say one has to listen to everything the beis din says(against another beis din) just because one will be buried there is his own chiddush. Enfield anyway doesnt belong to the union its a private business.
The morai horoho do it free and are not paid, so what does it mean they employ so many rabbonim. The nidda shaalos are all answered by dayan freedman no one trusts anyone else. The others always say ossur, the easy way out.

Anonymous said...

The fact of the matter is that in Din Torahs Kedassia does not follow R' Chaim's sophistry. If you are summoned to the Kedassia and you opt for Federation or LBD, as many do, they will never force you to attend because of place of burial.

It is also a fact that most SH frum residents are not 'members' as commonly understood, and I do not think it is much different in GG. Thus most people being buried in Enfield buy or have bought for them a plot of land at a premium rate and are not given any privileges by the kehilo.

If we are to follow this argument to its logical conclusion then Satmar is not bound by Kedassia since they now have their own burial ground.

Anonymous said...

Although satmar has their own. I dont think anyone from the men of satmar has yet been buried there even though it is free. Therefore they have to abide by the enfield rabinate since they all really want to be buried there still. When enfield becomes full (it already is fully double booked)and the arguments arise, then satmar will be able to hold its own. Waterlogged cheshunt is no ones cup of tea. They write every year in their zayin adar (this week) drosho that its improving but never that its yet improved. There is an underwater river and they employ king Canute to stop the waves.

misnaged said...

Enfield anyway doesnt belong to the union its a private business.

Who does Enfield belong to ?

Anonymous said...

anon 23:30 said:
"The nidda shaalos are all answered by dayan freedman no one trusts anyone else".

You've got it wrong there. R' Yossel Padwa happens to be a far greater autority in Nidda Shailos than R' Shulem Friedman. Ask around in town where most yingerleit take the shmattes to.

Anonymous said...

The 'poseiah shaar' is not written by Yossel Padwa or anything else.

Anonymous said...

R' Yossel is more popular because he is more user friendly whereas R' Shulem is a cold fish. Both follow their father/father in law who was practical and lenient, qualities which are rare in today's breed of poskim.

Anonymous said...

Am I the only one to be bothered by Rabbonim allowing themselves to be grilled in public?

What is the world coming to?

Anonymous said...

Why shouldn't a rov be grilled in public? What has he to be scared of? In this instance they are not speaking as rabbonim, paskening shaalos, but stating union policy and how they adopt it. No one forced them to come on this panel. The truth is that the union should be run by its members not by rabbonim. The non existent 'elections' should not depend on where you daven. Because R Frand is a rov and has written more than any of them should exclude him from being president. He should join the rabbinatt instead.

IfYouTickleUs said...

From a summary of the proceedings I have been sent, which I'll put up in due course, it appears that Halpern was there to lend pseudo halachic authority to the shambles that is the Union. He made a lofty speech which in summary was that the Union is predicated on haloche as we see it and if you want us to bury you you must allow us to skin you in preparation. Following which he left it to others to face the music.

As for Grynhouse, it was indeed uncharacteristically brave of him to sit through it. I think he may have been there to prevent a full frontal assault on the lay 'leaders' and he did show irritation at the lack of respect, as he saw it, in some of the questions.

In short Rabbonim can sometimes provide a useful fig leaf for their paymasters.

Anonymous said...

I would think greenhouse (thats how his father spelled it) was there to show he still exists. His shul has collapsed. Lucky for him Levinson closed. His merger plans with Pressburg have still not been finalised. And the owner of the Kollel is trying to get rid of it. Any offers!

DJ said...

Interesting article in the Telegraph but I was confused by some of the things it mentions such as never seeing Orthodox men and women toegther. Just today while cycling along the River Lea towpath I saw two young orthodox couples ealking together and next to the Crown & Anchor pub an older couple sitting together on a bench. I have also shaken hands with orthodox jews despite not being part of the gang

Anonymous said...

Unless I have misunderstood Judaism for the last sixty years, it is, unlike some other faiths, a religion without hierarchy. It I understand the author of this blog correctly, his real complaint is that there is a group (or a number of groups) of self appointed "machers" who claim an exalted status without any halachic authority.

I have ended up, through various twists and turns of life, as a liberal Jew, probably regarded as treif by many in SH and GG, but for all its faults, Liberal Judaism is much truer to the original spirit of a non-hierarchical system

Anonymous said...

You never seem to make new posts.
Anyway this weeks update has a letter from 'Rabbi' JJ Rosner who lost his dor yeshorim battle now against the census. He claims that all are ailments are because we are being counted. But he adds a chiddush (I think he should join the union rabbinate) that as long as you dont mention youre Jewish which is voluntary the 'census' wont harm you. Who am I to question our great rabbis?

Anonymous said...

Well it is just over a month till Pesach, a festival where we celebrate freedom from tyranny; perhaps this will be a good time of year for residents of SH to think about ridding themselves of tyranny

J. said...

Nu, what happened? I was waiting all weekend for the new post, including a discussion of the Union meeting, the Tribune coverage of it and the reaction in SH. Any updates?

Gavad Padwa said...

Anonymous said...

Am I the only one to be bothered by Rabbonim allowing themselves to be grilled in public?

What is the world coming to?

Finally someone out here in the schmutz speaking sense.

Anonymous said...

I checked the Trumas Hadeshen quoted by Rabbi Halpern regarding Beis Hachayim, and he refers to ALL piskei Halochos of the Beis din which has a Beis Hachayim, and not just to Dinei Torah. The Unoion Rabbinste doesn't have to own the Beis Hachayim it is the authority of it.

Anonymous said...

you dont quote the number of the tshuva. If it is 65 then that is not the way I understand it.
He refers to going to a beis din in a different town. He uses the word 'beirom'.
You reckon the roundabout places of a town to which cemetery they belong to.

Anonymous said...

Here is a link to the TH on Hebrewbooks.

If this is the one and the minutes are accurate then it appears disingenuous at best. The tshuva is about a Beth Din in relation to adjudication and whether you can be forced to appear. In any event it is a spurious argument in a day and age when almost no heimishe town in the world has an exclusive communal body.

Since the burial society, as the UHOC itself, has very few members how does he know where people have chosen to be buried? Many members of this community, including its ex Rov, choose to be buried elsewhere.

Besides if it is right, will the Halperns now respect members of other burial societies who carry in the eiruv?

Anyone who has any sense opts for the Federation or LBD on din torahs which is what the tshuva deals with and Kedassia doesn't try and force them on burial grounds.

J. said...

The teshuva is 65. It can be found here:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14655&st=&pgnum=167&hilite=
It does NOT say that you are bound by everything the Beis Din says, and also it says 'kiblu aleihem' - myself, or any other members of my kehilla were certainly not mekabel anything like this on ourselves. Furthermore, it is clear that when a Beis Hakevoros is a private company, such that it accepts any community who is willing to pay the fees, without making any demands on which Beis Din they use (eg Ohr Chodosh - Kedassia would never say that the people there can't follow their Rov's pesak even though they use their Beis Oilom), then this entire halocho does not apply (Joe Lobenstein said explicitly that not using the Eiruv ie listening to the Union Beis Din's pesokim is NOT a requirment for using the Beis Oilom). Additionally, there was never a gezeiro of shechutei chutz in London. Has anyone seen a signed gezeiro/kol korei like they have in Antwerp - I haven't b/c it doesn't exist. Also, it is clear that the Kedassia Beis Din is not a rabbonus for the whole kehilla in a traditional sense. Satmar, Belz and any other kehilla do not refer to Dayan Padva or the Kedassia Beis Din on sha'alos on other areas of halocho (they have their own rabbonim), so there is no reason for them to do so here. As a famous posek told me, this whole discussion doesn't apply to massive cities where everything is be'irbuvya. Does Kedassia really think that members of the US shouldn't eat kedassia meat because they are buried in a US beis hakvoros? Of course not. Ve'hu hadin le'inyaneinu.

J. said...

Did my comment get deleted?

Anonymous said...

The Trumas Hadeshen who quotes also the Mordechai in Sanhedren refers to the 'koiach bei sin'. The din of Beis Din refers not just to dinei torah but also the their hanhogas as qouted clearly in Trumas Hadeshen. See also Pri Chodosh end hl' peasch and Chazon Ish YD 150 about two botei dinim in one town.

Anonymous said...

אינו דח ודין כל עיקר לטף שוס ארס
מן סקסילכ להוציאו מכיח דינם לכ״ד אחר

יהיה דינם וחורחס כמוחם לענין ב״ד


אינו דת ודין כל עיקר לכוף שום אדס מן
הקהילה להוציאו מבית דינם לבית דין אחר

The rashi writing doesnt copy very well. As I wrote originally even the second line says as regards beis din.
23:30 17:49 And it clearly refers to din torahs.
How is it possible that the president of the union says there are 8, and of kedassia 12 rabbonim doing nothing on the payroll. Is it that difficult to count rabbonim. Or is it against the din to count and get it right. Most likely the president never sees the other four like everyone else.
The bakery hashgocho is a disgrace. Yotsai v'nichnas was never meant for a commercial bakery with workers. It was meant for the boss who would be scared. Which worker is scared today if caught. No court would ever throw him out for violating a Jewish halacho. Twice or three times a day or night, how much does one pay for that,I wonder.
This is a real eye opener. There is so much wrong with the union.

Anonymous said...

I work in a LBD bakery where the mashgiach himself is very questionable Kedassia have at least decent Yotzei vonecnas the workers have no reason to do anything wrong it's the boss or manager who need checking - simple as that. Do your homework before you comment.

Anonymous said...

I wonder id the LBD or the FED would ever take questions from the public, one should try a panel of comitee members with a Dayan or two, would be very interesting!

Anonymous said...

What do you mean can never do anything wrong. .
The could drink 'milk' while making challos. Or do they do that anyway. Or as long as it is kedassia milk they one can eat the challos with meat. I know at night there are coffee breaks all the time.
Is there that much water in it. They could bring treifa food in.
The only reason the union has done this is because they have lost GG.
And reading what went on there it looks like a lost cause. Would anyone join the union after this. More likely they will lose even more. The other kashrus authorities dont have to. Also one never gets an answer from kedassia. The president of the union doesnt even know what goes on there or how many rabbonim they support. Even Enfield which is the only reason to belong is a mistake, it is already full and by the time anyone needs it, it wont be there. The federation will open theirs not just to satmar and even SH will beg to belong rather than Cheshunt.
How can a chareidi kehilla justify a hashgocho of yotsai v'nichnas when the LBD doesnt.
All the kedassia bakeries charge enough to be able to pay for a proper hashgocho which I am sure they do. Its only the kedassia who says its not necessary to be able to keep the money.
The gemoro says shimon ben shetach did a similar 'trick' with his nezirim.

Anonymous said...

You understand bakeries as much as you understand Halocho, who do you ask your Shaalos? discuss it with him first and then respond. Rav Benzion Weitz who is in full control over the bakeries and a massive Takmud chochom takes full achrayis, give ne the name of the one in LBD or FED.

Anonymous said...

Just saying someone whom I am not familiar with is a massive talmid chochom, although I am sure 'arvoch arvo tsorich'. Who are you, also a massive one that you are able to measure him? is not an answer for drinking coffee with milk while 'moulding' challos. True its kedassia kosher milk and the challos are not 'treifo' in the usual sense although one shouldnt be making milchig bread. Especially since you are likely to eat them with meat on shabbos. Are you going to tell me or that massive talmid chochom that you can trust a goy in the middle of the night not to have a coffee break while working at the challos.
A mashgiach doesnt need to know halacha or be a massive talmid chochom but he does have to have common sense. And common sense dictates that the milk will end up on the challos without hashgocho.
Just being one of the twelve on the payroll of kedassia also doesnt qualify you.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps you can also explain how Tesco has a kedassia hechsher for pesach for orange juice made from concentrates.
I think all american hechsherim claim to squeeze them themselves.